being hit by river checkraises from bad players?

[joefu]

In my usual 3/6 or 5/10 online games, I often end up heads-up in position holding big cards vs. one of the looser, chasing players.
Typically by the river I have top pair on a fairly ragged board.
A few times a session, these players manage to run me down even though there is no obvious sign (such as a key straight or flush card).

Now, when this happens, I am nearly always check-raised.

1) If a player has generally not been mixing it up so far, do you fold to these raises when the pot is holding 8-9BB or less? I pay off almost every time here (and I don't seem to win the required 11-12% of the time).

2) Is there a type of fish against which I should be more likely to check down hands like this? I know I just need a 55% shot of winning the showdown, but some of these players also check their monster hands three times in these spots, too, trying a poorly executed slowplay. Also, I feel great checking back and seeing that the trap was set.

Thoughts?

[elysium]

hi joe
what it looks like is happening is your not considering whether you will 3 bet your opponent from LP if he check-raises you. you ask this before betting when he checks. if you will 3 bet his possible check-raise, then bet.

against an opponent who is not a great check-raising risk, you generally need to be about a 60%+ favorite when they call, but since were dealing here with a somewhat tricky possible check-raiser, you should have a hand that is about a 2-1 favorite; something like the second nut flush or lower set and top 2 pair with no completed draw on board. 2-1 favorite, however, doesn't include trips unless you have the best kicker AND you're opponent is not a good tight. and i know that sounds tight but were talking here about a possible check-raiser.

now sometimes these type players like to bet on the flop when they don't have a good hand and check it when they do; usually, on the flop, they will check-call with the goods if you bet after they check; or they will check-raise with a weak kicker or over-carded big pair. if they bet, you raise with top pair and with top 2 pair can 4 bet if reraised.

pay close attention to how they play the flop. if you detect a pattern of betting when they don't have it, and checking when they do, that info will greatly assist you against these type opponents. if you're not sure, then ask the questions above. you may be betting for value from LP on the river with a non-3-betting or a less than 2-1 favorite hand. it's only a value bet if you've detected a favorable pattern or your hand qualifies to raise or call a check-raise. remember you want to 3 bet the tricky slow-player and be a 2-1 favorite over opponents youre not sure about, when betting from LP on the river when checked to. othewise ALWAYS check it down.

[SossMan]

[Michael Davis]

"against an opponent who is not a great check-raising risk, you generally need to be about a 60%+ favorite when they call"

Why? 60% is way too high.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"against an opponent who is not a great check-raising risk, you generally need to be about a 60%+ favorite when they call"

Why? 60% is way too high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If your opponent is less likely to check-raise, your hand needs to be good less often than the 55% that is normally required, not more often.

[MaqEvil]

I pay off almost every time here (and I don't seem to win the required 11-12% of the time).

I know how you feel. Whenever I am running bad, it's an endless parade of flopped TPTK being check-raised on the river by a fish with rivered bottom 2. I pay off every damn time and almost always lose.

Actually, lately, I've been getting check-raised on the river by fish who rivered a middle pair, but such is the recent state of online poker.

I think that loosey players are going to call you down with a middle pair, pocket pair, or TP worse kicker far more than the 55% of the time necessary to bet the river. Heads-up, I'll bet it every time unless a really scary card comes on the river.