Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?

[me454555]

I'm usually a tight player and I'm looking for ways to loosen up a little bit pf. A lot of you guys are successful w/a 30/20 style but I can't figure out which hands to add pf and where. Can some of you more successfull LAGTAGs (Soilder, Baronzeus, etc) post a starting hand chart?

[___1___]

me454555,

Just FYI, a lot of people who might be 26/19ish otherwise are 30/20 specifically b/c of how loose they play out of the blinds.

___1___

[me454555]

I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

[Spicymoose]

What is your ASB?

[me454555]

Overall ~30% but I'm trying on raising it to 35%, I just gotta find the right hands. Right now I follow the standards of MBendahoe's chart. I dont have the link to it but I think its in the FAQ. That chart pretty much gets you to 20/15, not sure where to go from there though.

[aba20]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would just defend more out of the blinds. I have a feeling that this is where you are losing your hands. I used to have your stats and know I am a 24/19. I would read peterrus posts about blind defence. That really expanded my range in defending the blinds. I also raise with any pair, J9o+, Q8o+, A-rag, and K7o+ on the cutoff and button, and loosely follow the starting hand chart that was posted on the forum. I also think that I play to loosely sometimes. I think if you defend more out of the blinds you will be fine.

[Spicymoose]

A huge portion of your VPIP comes from CO, Button, SB, and BB. And, the majority of that is blind stealing and defense.

As for other situations... I will give a few hands I think you can play, which you may or not be playing.

Open raise JTs from MP.
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP).
Raise K8o after the CO limps.
Limp 64s after 3 limpers (or maybe after 2 if you have the button).
Limp T7s after 3 limpers.
Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO).
Cold call 22 on the button after a raise and 2 cold calls, or after a limp-limp-raise.

[me454555]

Open raise JTs from MP - I've started to do this
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). - usually a limp for me so I don't think it would raise my vpip. A raise is interesting though
Raise K8o after the CO limps - I don't do this one and I might have to start experimenting w/it
Limp 64s after 3 limpers (or maybe after 2 if you have the button). - 2 limpers on the button, this is a fold for me. In the sb after 3 limpers, I'll complete
Limp T7s after 3 limpers - I gotta start doing that more
Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). - Already do this one

As for my blind defense

@ 3/6 i'll fold my sb to a blind steal 87% of the time and BB 63% of the time. I'm getting slaughtered in the BB losing .18bb/hand but my sb isn't too bad as I'm only losing .06. I think my sb strategy is fine for 3/6 b/c of the 1/3 blind structure but I could be wrong.

[EvanJC]

im struggling with the same thing as you, but i think your fold bb to steal should brobably be closer to 55 - you can play a lot of garbage out of the bb

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my sb strategy is fine for 3/6 b/c of the 1/3 blind structure but I could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm more of a 23/17 guy, but at 3/6 I dipped down a couple points because I was super tight in the sb. As others have said, the best way to up VPIP is with steal/defense. Since I like having initiative I started with upping steals and raises against bad limpers. If there's a particularly horrible CO that open-limps, I'll pound him with a lot of hands.

Just a question for you guys. Are you following a chart? I have never done this. I know what type of hands are good(through pstove analysis) from which position but I dont follow it that rigorously. For example I might raise K9s utg one hand I might fold it the next. I might raise 77 utg one hand, I might limp it the next(yes I limp small pps at some tables). Is this strange to you all?

[Wynton]

Of those hands you mention, thne only ones I might disagree about are:

-Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). I can see doing this, but can also see folding.
-Raise K8o after the CO limps: I would fold here.
-Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). If MP was very aggressive, I'd reraise too, but against unknown I fold.

Curious what others think of those.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Open raise JTs from MP -

[/ QUOTE ]

I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open raise JTs from MP -

[/ QUOTE ]

I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

[/ QUOTE ]

I do also, and last time I checked, I was something like 22/17. I really believe that the difference between us is mostly blind defense, much more so than steals or playing from other positions.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Of those hands you mention, thne only ones I might disagree about are:

-Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). I can see doing this, but can also see folding.
-Raise K8o after the CO limps: I would fold here.
-Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). If MP was very aggressive, I'd reraise too, but against unknown I fold.

Curious what others think of those.

[/ QUOTE ]
I usually fold A2s. I'll raise K8o depending mostly on the CO and partly on the blinds. I 3bet ATo against most MP open-raises.

[Victor]

Open raise JTs from MP. good
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). bad
Raise K8o after the CO limps. bad
Limp 64s after 3 limpers only on the button
Limp T7s after 3 limpers.
on the button and after 2 is ok. serioulsy, how often do you see 3 limpers at 5/10 and 10/20. these hands add like .1% to vpip.

Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). make sure opp is aggro, like 16 pfr and 30 atsb

Cold call 22 on the button after a raise and 2 cold calls, or after a limp-limp-raise. ok

the situations you describe rarely come up and wont add anything substantial to vpip. the a2s and k8o i never do and i a 26/20.

to the op: the best way to get to 30/20 is by opening your raising hands on the button and your defending hands in the bb. i would suggest starting on the button. steal with 87s, j8o, k7o, k2s, q6s, q8o, a2o. clearly, it should depend on the bb and sb how low you want to go with these. if you are against tough aggro defenders you may want to hold back some until you are more comfortable. still, this should get you to about 20pfr and 35 atsb. i would concentrate on button play until you are happy and comfortable with your blind stealing play.

after you are happy with your button play then start to defend in the bb with a lot more hands. i am starting to defend about any 2 cards with some sort of highcard value or connectivity.

i dont recommend doing both to start with bc you will be inundated with so many new situations that it would be very easy to get discouraged. also, by starting with button play you will see what kind of blind play is the most annoying and you can emulate those guys.

[lastcoyote]

How far out of your way do you go to isolate a loose opponent? I think table selection (in addition to blind stealing and defense) has a lot to do with getting your VPIP/PFR up.

What I mean is, my stats went up when I began being very careful to make sure I am sitting directly to the left of a loose player. Depending on your seat and who is left to act you can really raise with a lot of hands that aren't on the "chart" and still be profitable.

I think Rory made a post a while back saying not to worry so much about your overall stats but pay attention to your hand strength vs. your opponents starting range. If you are sitting to the left of someone who plays 70% of his hands you can raise with just about any two cards higher than 8 if you think there's a decent chance everyone else will fold enough.

If the person on your right raises 30% of their hands you can 3-bet with just about any hand that you would normally see a flop with. Your going to get HU with them quite a bit with a better hand and position.

If you choose the right seats at the right tables and really try to isolate your VPIP and PFR will go up.

[DMBFan23]

Victor,

What is the lowest K you raise after a CO limper? I ask because I will raise K8o sometimes if blinds are tight. KTo is obviously obvious. what about K9o?

Great point about working on button first and then BB. I like.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]

Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). bad
Raise K8o after the CO limps. bad


[/ QUOTE ]

The A2s is not bad. I dont follow hand charts but if I remember correctly, even the chart that flows around here says to do this.

K8o is an intresting situation as I dont want to fold. Depends I think I mix this up depending on the blinds.

Also to OP: I dont think some of the guys u mentioned are 30/20 in 6max, there was a thread about this and if I remember most ppl that are 30/20 play a lot of 5 handed or less. So the stats are looser than they would be if u filtered it. I know Im in that situation, when I filter Im like 28/20 in 6-handed exclusivly or something like that.

[sthief09]

- stop limping almost completely
- play lots of hands on the button
- steal a lot
- make some loose calls in the blinds

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only 22/17, and UTG I raise any two suited cards ten or higher.

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you go with MEBenHoe's starting hand chart, you'll get upto 24/17 or thereabouts.

[DMBFan23]

I'm "26/19" but when you filter for 5-6 handed I'm 23/17

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only 22/17, and UTG I raise any two suited cards ten or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I didn't know people raised JTs UTG. I raise QJs, but I guess I might start to add in the JTs. Do you guys do this as a standard, or do you need to be at a pretty tight table?

[gildwulf]

Standard. I actually posted a thread a while back about some TAG raising 9Ts UTG and thinking this was crazy but some solid players on 2+2 agreed with even this raise as well...

[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a tight player and I'm looking for ways to loosen up a little bit pf. A lot of you guys are successful w/a 30/20 style but I can't figure out which hands to add pf and where. Can some of you more successfull LAGTAGs (Soilder, Baronzeus, etc) post a starting hand chart?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the starting hand chart pretty much and I'm 24/15. I think the bulk of my difference between that and 30/20 is blind raises. I'm really tentative raising out of the blinds because I hate committing chips preflop out of position against a LAG.

I've just started going to the SSH hand chart for SB/BB raise criteria and seeing I'm not even raising the blinds as much as that says...and that's for 10 player.

[oreogod]

JTs is raise or fold material obviously. But if u are at a table where u will consistently be re-raised by later positions, then always playing JTs UTG is lame. This is especially true with T9s.

Im pretty aggressive preflop but as with everything in poker it depends on playing conditions. On a sidenote I talked with King Yao for a bit about shorthanded poker and he mentioned both JTs and QJs are pretty marginal openers UTG 6max. QJs is the one hand of the two that are standard-ish imo. JTs not always.

[Victor]

i raise k10 regardless and k9 if co is a fish and the blinds are tight.

ive raised k8o a number of times and it usually turns out a disaster.

[ghostface]

Yeah i think the x/20 part comes from reraising liberally on resteals in the blinds.

What is the accepted FSBtSt @ 3/6 and 5/10?

[Jeff W]

Posting a chart would be a waste. If you're going to play 30% of your hands, you need to be experienced and savvy enough to play situations.

FWIW, my VPIP and PFR are 30 and 20 sorted for 4-6 handed tables:

By Position

[/ QUOTE ]
Button: 27.8/27.1
CO: 25.2/24.8
MP: 20.0/19.4
UTG: 17.4/17.4
BB: 40.3/11.4
SB: 37.9/19.3

I think it would be a bad idea for you to play the way I do pre flop. Stick with playing 20% of your hands pre flop and you'll be fine. When you're ready to play more hands, you won't need a chart.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
I play the starting hand chart pretty much and I'm 24/15

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the same chart and I'm 20/15, weird. I'm not trying to get to 30/20, just add a few more hands or so that can be profitable. I don't raise JTs utg but I do it from MP

[baronzeus]

filtered 5-6 handed i am 27/19 preflop. throw in 4 handed and i am 30/22. i can make a chart but im pretty sure some of the hands i play are so marginal that i make very little money off of them.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
i can make a chart

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Drontier]

filtered 5-6 players I am 28.28/20.28. You really don't need a chart. As you become more familiar you will recognize the opponents you should be raising more hands against. Down to 4-6 I am 29.30/21.28.
2-6 I am...
BB 37.16/14.77
SB 39.98/21.59
Button 29.71/28.84
1 26.41/25.51
2 18.00/17.74
3 18.10/18.10

This is just this months stats, not over 20k hands at 10/20, but this is quite similar to my overall stats.

[Guy McSucker]

Jeff,

Your button stats interest me. Lord knows I like playing the button. Lately I have been overlimping on the button with speculative hands (J9o sometimes - eek!) when one or two bad players are in, just because I like playing these guys in position.

It looks to me as if, in the same situation, you almost always raise if you're going to play.

How does this affect the rest of the hand? Do you take freebies on the flop much? Or tend to bet the flop?

Guy.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
How does this affect the rest of the hand? Do you take freebies on the flop much? Or tend to bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, Justin A sweated me for a session and commented on how often I check behind on the flop after raising pre flop.

You're right, I don't limp much pre flop, but I play in tough games where there are almost never multiple limpers. I also never limp behind 1 limper w/ speculative hands like 44 and T9s. If I play them, I raise.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
BB: 40.3/11.4


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that one seems suprising to me. I am 22/12 there. Does that mean I don't defend nearly enough, or that you are just that much better and defend twice as much?

Also, my PT stats by position show 4 and 5 off the button, which I am confused by, since I only play 6-max. It follows the decreasing hand count/VPIP/PRF just as all my other off the button stats do...

[Victor]

ive loosened up a ton lately. here is my stats my last 25k filtered for 4-6.

button 29/17
co 24/24
mp 18/18
utg 16/16
bb 27/8
sb 30/20

edit: totals are 26/20

[TheMetetron]

Not surprisingly, I agree with everything victor said in this post.

Seriously, raising A2s after a limper in MP? Ewww...

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
- stop limping almost completely
- play lots of hands on the button
- steal a lot
- make some loose calls in the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the "formula" if you will. There is no way to make a starting hand chart for a good 30/20 player, because there are some hands that he will play in some of the time in a given position depending on game conditions but not in other times when those specific conditions aren't present any more.

Example: It is folded to me on the button and I see J /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I will fold this hand if the blinds' defending standards are loose or average, but if the blinds are tight and/or very weak postflop, then I'll open with this hand.

So it would be very foolish to add J5s as a hand to open-raise with on the button (because it's a losing play against a lot of opponents), but I probably open it 10-20% of the time in this situation because of game conditions.

Hope that is a helpful example.

PS - In truth, I am really just a weak 26/17 player. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But part of the reason for that is that I seek out LAGgier overaggressive games, and it is generally correct to have tighter open-raising standards in such games. So I make plays like the one in the example less often (because the appropriate condition to make them happens less often). But I call with J5s more often in the BB against a LAGgy raiser than a tight raiser, all else being equal.

[IGMorton]

i run 26/19 using this

http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=1701869

following the blind defense on that chart, i only play those "CA" hands vs. about half of my opponents. i run FBB 58-60% and FSB 81-83%.

again, i treat half my opponents as tight, and steal with those "RT" hands vs. them. i run ASB 36-38%

[Subfallen]

I'm playing 25/18 (filtered 5-handed) these days, and multi-tabling is much easier than when I ran at 30/20.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). bad
Raise K8o after the CO limps. bad


[/ QUOTE ]

The A2s is not bad. I dont follow hand charts but if I remember correctly, even the chart that flows around here says to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't spent a lot of time at the sh tables, but in my limited experience I really don't see the advantage of raising A2s there. You will hardly ever get it HU, so you'll be playing a 3-way or more pot for 2 bets preflop the majority of times. Profitable?

[oreogod]

Here is a pic of a chart I have worked on on and off. Tell me what u think, ppls. Some of it is based off the Mbenhoe starting chart, but its been re-worked to my liking.

I can also host the excel file if anyone is intrested.

Grey=Fold.
RL=raise first in or 1 limper, call or chk otherwise
RT=raise tight players first in, fold otherwise
LR=limp vs loose opponents, raise tight players.


http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/313/6maxchart9ys.jpg

[me454555]

Does anyone have significant numbers in pt of raising UTG w/JTs. How much +EV is it? If we get a few people posting their results, i'm sure we can get a large enough sample size to make it significant

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
I really believe that the difference between us is mostly blind defense, much more so than steals or playing from other positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is prolly true. I'm really trying to examine my SH game b/c I just dont like the results. I know that running good is a HUGE part of sh play and that streaks are nothing but I can't help feeling there is at least 1 or 2 major leaks in my play b/c my winrate isn't near what it should be and I just don't feel comfortable in the game all the time. C'est la vie, just another day in the life of a SH addict

[oreogod]

I also havent really included a good 3bet range. Trying to find a way to keep it simple. Like say CO openraises and u have A8s...Id usually 3bet that. I could say "R-CO"

EDITED MY CHART PIC. The chart is by no means finished. Almost there but there are some inconsitentcies and problems with it. Like the CC w/ AJs part.

I would love it if you could host the excel file! What about your limping in early position btw. Seems awfully easy to play against you should you choose to limp. I think you need some more limping hands like A10,KJ or just to drop it.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I would love it if you could host the excel file! What about your limping in early position btw. Seems awfully easy to play against you should you choose to limp. I think you need some more limping hands like A10,KJ or just to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is for suckers. so are charts.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would love it if you could host the excel file! What about your limping in early position btw. Seems awfully easy to play against you should you choose to limp. I think you need some more limping hands like A10,KJ or just to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is for suckers. so are charts.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you look through this thread you will see that I have never used one. But I figured it would be fun to put my ideas into print..

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would love it if you could host the excel file! What about your limping in early position btw. Seems awfully easy to play against you should you choose to limp. I think you need some more limping hands like A10,KJ or just to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is for suckers. so are charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same could be said for blanket statments like yours. I imagine it was said in jest, so whatever...Im not making the chart for me, just to see if I could do it to help some ppl. The image posted above was just an early draft. I have since worked on it more and its coming along much better...anyway the excel file also has a decent BB defense mapped out for general situations.

But ppl just starting out in 6max will benefit imo. Plus its been intresting to force yourself to map out a preflop game for general situations. (basically I started w/ MBenhoes chart, compared it to two others and King Yaos shorthanded opening standards (from an old 2+2 post of his)...then mixed with my ideas to create what I think is a superior starting hand chart)

Anyway I will start a new thread soon as soon as I get it into presentable form so it can be critiqued.

[IGMorton]

heya,

i like your chart. lol, you seem to use the same abbreviatoins i did for many actions that "depend". i'm refering to the first version of that chart that a few guys from thisisthenuts are using like RL, RT, LR... just a coincidence?

http://www.thisisthenuts.com/forum/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=25&MessageID=269

my latest version includes a few more hands as i'm starting to loosen up in the blinds:

http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=1701869

i notice our general preflop gameplan is very similar. i'm curious, what are your vpip, pfr, asb, fbb, fsb?

[oreogod]

Actually wait until u see my updated chart. IT pushes some pretty marginal stuff. What I posted was pretty rough draftish. Anyway, friend of mine who plays 150/300 for a living (also one of the best shorthaned players I know)...helped me bring the quality up even further.

Not sure if it will be for everyone but its about as close as u can get to how I play preflop. I also included basic BB defense as well.

I will have it up later.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would love it if you could host the excel file! What about your limping in early position btw. Seems awfully easy to play against you should you choose to limp. I think you need some more limping hands like A10,KJ or just to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is for suckers. so are charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that chart sucks IMO.

Raising 55 UTG? Are you kidding...

(And I have a PFR of 22)


Edit: I don't mean this as a pesonal attack, I just think charts in general are BS. No successful player I know uses a chart. It's really good for people to not even use them when starting out because you learn SO much faster by just thinking things through yourself.

[B Dids]

Like Jeff W said.

If you need a chart to play, you shouldn't be playing 30/20.

6 max is far too situational for a chart to be anything but basic training wheels in the first two weeks. If you can't play and adapt using your own reasoning, you're screwed.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
Like Jeff W said.

If you need a chart to play, you shouldn't be playing 30/20.

6 max is far too situational for a chart to be anything but basic training wheels in the first two weeks. If you can't play and adapt using your own reasoning, you're screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you should definetly not be playing off a chart, but I do think looking at how other people play can be helpful. If a good player is playing 50% more hands than you, you can at least begin to see where you might loosen up. I am not saying you should go all the way, but at least add in a few of the hands that might be along the way (for example, if someone plays down to A2 in a somewhat marginal situation, you may decide to play only down to A7, or something like that).

[oreogod]

Wow lot of animosity towards charts and ppl starting out who use them. I know we dont need them, but bashing ppl that do is pretty low. The only reason I decided to give it a try is because a freind of mine starting out asked. I mean I know its the classy thing to do calling some dude using Ed Millers charts a loser, but seriously.

As far as my chart even in that rough form its far better than anything that has been around in here, and as far as 55 that was supposed to apply to 66. But in certain game conditions I will limp in loose-passive tables and raise pretty tight tables (rare, but sometimes does happen)...just because proper strategy most of the time in 6max is raise or fold, it doesnt mean u can never ever do something different. I mean, godforbid the poker police ever forgive u for rarely open completing your sb once in a while when its folded to u.

[stoxtrader]

I use a chart and I also raise 55 3 off the button (maybe I should check my EV there, I do know i make money with all pairs down to 22, because i just checked that last night, but not sure if 55 3 off the button is a winner or loser, of course i wont have any sample to speak of for that. I dont stick with the chart too much, but its a great baseline.

Actually deciding the where and why of cutting off at certain hand points is a very very useful exercise.

I will have to look at PT tonight, cause I dont know the numbers from memory filtering for 5-6 handed, but I do know I am about 31/21 over 100k hands 50/100 and higher with average players per hand of 5.4, but that included a number of HU hands and even some full table play, though not much.

I'm not going to post the chart, sorry, too much to explain it, and using it without explanation probably not all that useful anyways.

[hobbsmann]

would you mind hosting the .xls file?

[oreogod]

Nice post, Stox. Another reason I decided to make a chart from scratch was kind of a way to test my preflop knowledge...Im good at the game especially postflop, so its weird that I always felt I could improve on my preflop area some. Im laggy in the fact that I usually play 4handed or less so when I play with more ppl that carries over (I hate folding any hand i dont have to - I try to push as much edge as possible) and so I did this as an excercise. Thought I was going to hate it, but I had a blast thinking it through.

My chart now is way better than what was posted and for the most part, 2 good 50/100+ players also agree with it (not twoplustwoers - just friends in real life). We went over it for kicks and included some marginal stuff that came pretty close to my usual preflop strategy.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
would you mind hosting the .xls file?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will. Im going to get some sleep, go over it again then host it.

Just be warned it does push marginal hands. Along with me and what my friends came up with, I referenced the Mbenhoe chart, King Yao's Open Raising standards for shorthanded 3-6handed games(I will try and find the link to this), the chart IGM posted, etc. So basically its pushing a good amount of what can be pushed, and might take u out of your comfort zone.

Again when I throw it up, critiques will be welcome as I know some of u will have questions on situations with suited aces, Kx suited, and Jx suited...etc. Anyway, I will either host it here or in a new thread. Here might be best.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you mind hosting the .xls file?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will. Im going to get some sleep, go over it again then host it.

Just be warned it does push marginal hands. Along with me and what my friends came up with, I referenced the Mbenhoe chart, King Yao's Open Raising standards for shorthanded 3-6handed games(I will try and find the link to this), the chart IGM posted, etc. So basically its pushing a good amount of what can be pushed, and might take u out of your comfort zone.

Again when I throw it up, critiques will be welcome as I know some of u will have questions on situations with suited aces, Kx suited, and Jx suited...etc. Anyway, I will either host it here or in a new thread. Here might be best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Browsing over what you posted earlier it appears to play about what I'm at with a few deviations and I think it would be instructive to further solidify my preflop play by thinking critically about a lot of my marginal preflop decisions and compare them to this chart as well.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]

The same could be said for blanket statments like yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

arent charts the ultimate blanket statements?

[Victor]

ok, heres what i think of your chart: understand that my criticisms are regarding general is situations. obviously, some of these plays are correct against some opponents.

1. aqs is a fold vs a 3bet. 1010/99 are far closer to calls or raises here.

2. openlimping 44-22 is gross.

3. advocating calling 3cold with ajs is abominable.

4. 3betting a9/a8, k10-k8s vs a co raise is only good against an aggro co. k8 is especially low.

5. qj, q10, and j10 vs a co raiser certainly should not be routine unless the guy gives up on the flop easily. i would prefer a coldcall against most lagtards even. these are hit or miss hands, so you might as well coldcall and bring the blinds along since these hands play well multiway.

[tolbiny]

I wouldn't call JTs utg standard. I started out playing SH raising that and QTs- after about 20,000 hands i dropped them both from UTG (6handed)- I occasionally thorw them in now, but i wouldn't be surprised if you took a poll to see basically a 60/40 split on weather to raise them utg.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call JTs utg standard. I started out playing SH raising that and QTs- after about 20,000 hands i dropped them both from UTG (6handed)- I occasionally thorw them in now, but i wouldn't be surprised if you took a poll to see basically a 60/40 split on weather to raise them utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise them.

Krishan

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
2. openlimping 44-22 is gross.

3. advocating calling 3cold with ajs is abominable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Victor, which is worse: "gross" or "abominable"?

I need to know for the fish chart I'm thinking of making.

[oreogod]

Who said anything about open limping 44-22, that is horrible unless u are in an extreme circumstance UTG in a super passive-loose game that plays like a full game, w/ most of the raising preflop coming from u. The CC 3bet w/ AJ is a left over from whatever was on this chart from before. Any of the items in green are meant to be against an agro lag/Co raiser. In the new chart they are labeled soemthing like "3B3" meaning: "3bet lone lag or aggressive CO raiser, call w/ three or more in".

As far as JTs utg. Depends on the game, if Im going to be re-raised HU out of position a good amount, how tight/loose the table is playing, etc.

[me454555]

Dids,

You know from my posts that I can play SH. My main goal of this post was to compare my style to a polar opposite that is also a winning. For the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone can play 30/20 and still make these calls +ev and thats why I asked for a chart. By comparing my starting hands w/those of looser players, I might be able to find some places I can add some ev. I'm not looking for a formula to play 30/20 as I don't think I will ever approach that, just looking for someone to help shine a light on some of places I may be missing pf.

[oreogod]

Like Stox says, whether u know how to play or not, making a chart could be a good baseline and at the very least makes u focus on preflop desicions a little more while doing. Makes u really work on why do what u do...which is nice as most of the time u are runnning on autothink.

Also, say I find someones chart, or run across one...they play a certain hand in a general situation or have it maked to play and I dont play that hand...I want to know why. I dont like folding if I dont have to and any more hands I can profitably add regardless of how marginal or hard to play...makes my game stronger and forces me to play better. (imo anyway)

[pokerbo]

Most of these starting hands seem to be for Limit Holdem?? anyone play NL 6MAX??

[ghostface]

Try here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker) .