4 handed river decision? (online 50/100)

[DonCaspero]

Please comment all streets - mainly river

Limper is loose passive. Raiser is lag, I have yet to decide how good a hand reader he is postflop, but definately seems to know the game. Both blinds are tags - SB a bit on the passive side maybe. I am tag, and haven't done anything crazy yet.


50/100 (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero raises or calls??

[UMTerp]

I'd raise the river, though it's close. I'm all for going for overcalls when the situation calls for it, but I'm having a tough time putting either of the earlier opponents on anything but busted draws. You might get a call out of QT or the like even if you did raise. MP1 with likely call your raise with TPTK or better if he's that laggy. Given that fact, you'd need both EP callers to come along to show a profit by calling. At least one of them is likely to have missed and fold even if you call behind. Would either of them be the type to call behind with JT/T9 if you smoothcalled?

I'd raise the flop too, FWIW.

[Lmn55d]

there's also the possibility of PFR 3betting with KQ, TT, QQ, or KK (18 total combos) and you picking up two more bets from him alone. Add to that the chance of someone calling 2 cold and I think it's a raise.

[Paluka]

I like preflop, flop and turn. I would raise the river.

[Jeffage]

1) You have a very easy preflop reraise.

2) You have an easy flop raise

3) You can raise the turn as well

I'd raise the river b/c you're not guaranteed overcalls anyway. But I think that's secondary to the fact that I believe your play on this hand is botched.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

Can you explain why you wouldn't reraise preflop, raise the flop or raise the turn in this hand? Curious about why you'd play it so passively.

Jeff

[DonCaspero]

Preflop I'm playing at least a 3-way pot. Limper is not folding, so I just call to let in hands from the blinds like Ax and /images/graemlins/heart.gifs that I don't mind. Also depending on the flop texture, it gives me the option to make it two bets to everyone, assuming the lag bets it and I get a piece of it.

Flop can be raised, but I have the nut flush draw, and I want to keep people in to pay me off. It might clear some outs, but not many I think.

I don't raise the turn because I still want to keep people in, and the K may result in two folds and a 3-bet. But the decision was already made on the flop.

[MNpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
1) You have a very easy preflop reraise.

2) You have an easy flop raise

3) You can raise the turn as well

I'd raise the river b/c you're not guaranteed overcalls anyway. But I think that's secondary to the fact that I believe your play on this hand is botched.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jeffage]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I'm playing at least a 3-way pot. Limper is not folding, so I just call to let in hands from the blinds like Ax and s that I don't mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 4-handed and you're likely to have the best hand. In fact, it's a hand that plays well headsup or multiway. And the donks in the blinds may call two cold with a weaker hand anyway given the nature of these games shorthanded. Also reraising preflop gives you more options postflop and the ability to represent different hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop can be raised, but I have the nut flush draw, and I want to keep people in to pay me off. It might clear some outs, but not many I think.


[/ QUOTE ]

The preflop raiser may be betting something you beat or can get to lay down later. Your raise may force someone to fold a pair rather than calling two cold. Plus, they may call anyway.

The turn, I agree, is riskier. But a raise may also win you the hand if the preflop raiser doesn't have what you expect him to. And, in the likely event that this doesn't work, you still have outs.

I just prefer to be aggro here, but maybe that is a fault of mine. In these types of hands, your opponents expect you to be aggro anyway so I'd like to splash when A) I have a strong hand/draw and B) I might somehow win without hitting my hand by playing aggressively but have plenty of outs if that doesn't work out.

Jeff

[UMTerp]

Why is the preflop raise so clear-cut? Does the presence of the initial limper make you more or less likely to 3-bet? Why? I'm pretty sure I just found a preflop leak...

EDIT - I see you kind of answered this in your above post, but a response to the part about how the limper affects preflop would be appreciated.

[mscags]

[ QUOTE ]

1) You have a very easy preflop reraise.



[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff,
I must be completely missing something here. Why would you reraise pf?

[Jeffage]

I am a retard. I saw the title of the thread and thought the GAME was 4-handed, not that the hand played 4-handed. Sorry for the confusion. In this case, I can see either reraising or calling preflop as viable options, depending on game conditions. I see what he was thinking here so the coldcall was fine. I think my postflop advice is still fine though...I'd have to look back at it which I don't have time for right now.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

You're missing the fact that I suck at multitasking.

Jeff

[sweetjazz]

I'd raise this river. There is some chance you will get further action or people calling two.

I much prefer going for overcalls if there's some chance that I am beat by the original bettor but I am likely ahead of the other potential overcallers (and if they are winning, they aren't going to fold for two). Then the possibility of getting 3-bet is bad for you and makes you more inclined to overcall.

Here, you welcome a 3-bet, and you may get one because it's hard to put you on AJ here. Only AhJh makes sense, and if I were the villain in this hand, I'd 3-bet KK here and pay you off when you cap it without hesitation.

BTW, I play preflop, flop, and turn as you did, though the flop is close and I would consider raising depending on opponent tendencies.

[limitholdemshark]

u r not a tag player. a tag player would 3 bet preflop 2 thin the field and take control of the hand.if its capped then a true tag would then know that he's probably behind in the hand preflop.if ur bet into on the flop RAISE!u have the nut flush draw with 2 over cards.on the turn bet out 2 represent either a premium hand or top pair or set.when u river the nut straight raise.If there is 2 players behind u its unlikley both will call if u just call but both may fold so ur best chance 4 an extra bet is from the fool who bet out on the river with either 2 pair or a rivered set.

[flawless_victory]

well, i wouldnt play preflop or flop like that, but i think its fine.

river seems like a clear raise.

[SirFelixCat]

Let me preface by saying that I do not play this high...10-20 thru 20-40...

Preflop, you can make a case for the cold call or the reraise, either is fine, IMO.

Flop, this is an easy raise, with the nut flush draw and two over cards, plus, you take control of the hand.

Turn, assuming you had raised, you can either raise the PF bettor if he donk bets here, or be the bettor, as with the K, you can represent any number of big hands. If you get called, great, you have as many as 12 good outs. But there is also a chance you take it down on the turn with a raise/bet.

River, where, had you played the hand as above (raising the flop and esp. by betting/raising the turn) you look to get paid off when you raise the river, as putting you on AJ here would be near impossible, save for the "improbable" AJh.

Seems like you had chances to make much more in this hand had you not played it so passively. Just the $0.02 of a lower mid-stakes player.

[DonCaspero]

I was happy to hit the straight instead of the flush, since it was more concealed in the way I played it. So I raised and everybody folded. Just bad luck nobody had a real hand. Looks like I could have seen some action by a lower flush if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif had hit the river, so either way I will probably raise the river most of the time.

I agree with several posters that the earlier streets can be played differently. But I also think this is a situation where it should not be played either way a majority of the time.

[Angelina]

[ QUOTE ]
50/100 (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play, you should raise, you might easily be best and have good equity even when behind. The limper must suffer, it's for the greater good.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

You flopped a monster. You have better pot equity than 33, 44, 55, 77, 88, 99, A5s, A7s, A8s, A9, AJo, AQo, KJ, KQ, QJ, J9s, T8s. You can suckout easily on KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AT. What is the hold up? Cap it.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (6.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. A gutshot too. Your hand improved, easy (but not necessary) raise.

[ QUOTE ]
River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero raises or calls??

[/ QUOTE ]

You should raise with the nuts on river. You might get 3bet by a nut.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
The limper must suffer, it's for the greater good.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is very sound, imo. Unless he is a frequent limp-reraiser with AA.