derosnec's hand, 55 UTG in the money

[durron597]

An interesting discussion arose in this thread about raising to less than allin with 55 and these stack sizes. I am starting a new thread on this because the other one degenerated into a flame war. I am doing it this way because it's much easier than deleting basically every post in the old thread.

Below is the original post:

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Names changed to protect the innocent


***** Hand History for Game 3043528430 *****
300/600 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 17454450) - Wed Nov 16 01:56:15 EST 2005
Table Table 67506 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: Villain (1790)
Seat 3: Bigstack (3470)
Seat 5: derosnec (2740)
Villain posts small blind (150)
Bigstack posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to derosnec [ 5h, 5s ]
derosnec raises (700) to 700
Villain raises (1640) to 1790
Villain is all-In.
Bigstack folds.
derosnec: i think i am favored
derosnec: AJ?
derosnec calls (1090)
Creating Main Pot with $3880 with Villain
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jd, 7c, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4s ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3880 |
Board: [ Jd 7c 9c 4h 4s ]
Villain balance 3880, bet 1790, collected 3880, net +2090 [ Ah Js ] [ two pairs, jacks and fours -- Ah,Js,Jd,4h,4s ]
Bigstack balance 3170, lost 300 (folded)
derosnec balance 950, lost 1790 [ 5h 5s ] [ two pairs, fives and fours -- Jd,5h,5s,4h,4s ]

[durron597]

Below is pzhon's reply.

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The comments on this thread remind me why I no longer regularly read this forum. Several people insisted that the OP played so horribly he can't possibly be a winning player. In fact, his play on this hand was reasonable, just unfashionable on this forum, where people seem blind to anything but a simple pushbot strategy that can be implemented for a 10% ROI on 20 tables. There are many winning strategies, some of which have a higher ROI and some of which look very different from what is currently popular here. Many dangerous opponents follow different strategies, and it is worth understanding them.

There's more than one way to f[/i]uck a lightbulb.

[ QUOTE ]

Seat 2: Villain (1790)
Seat 3: Bigstack (3470)
Seat 5: derosnec (2740)
Villain posts small blind (150)
Bigstack posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to derosnec [ 5h, 5s ]
derosnec raises (700) to 700

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising to 700 instead of pushing is not inherently stupid with these stack sizes. It lets you fold if the SB pushes and the big stack calls or reraises. If you get called, you have the advantage of position, and you can get away from an unfavorable flop without losing your stack. If you don't believe me that making such a raise can be reasonable (whether or not I agree with it here; I think it's better to do this with other hands than low pairs), look up past posts by Lorinda and David Sklansky (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=genpok&Number=592164& Searchpage=2&Main=592164&Words=David+Sklansky&topi c=&Search=true#Post592164) on similar situations.

[Slim Pickens]

There's nothing wrong with the general concept of raising less than all-in in situations such as these. In reality, the preflop difference between open-pushing and a smaller raise is twofold

1) It alters both potential Villains' re-raising ranges. It will probably loosen them some. If they were calling a push with {88+,ATs+,AJo+,KQ}, maybe now they're re-raising with {33+,A8s+,A9o,KJs+,KQo}. The difference in prize pool equity over any span of potential holdings where you get all-in preflop isn't that much: about 0.8% better to push preflop.

2) Raising less than all-in allows you to take further action in the hand. There's the situation where SB pushes and BB calls where you might want to get out. Much more likely though is for one of the two to call you. That really, really sucks when you have 55. Your implied odds are absolutely horrible. AJ won't pay you off nearly as often when they get to see a flop and miss, whereas 55 is usually just as ill-defined postflop as it is preflop. Even with position, the stacks aren't deep enough for you to do anything without someone being pot-committed.

Item 1 slightly favors a preflop push. Item 2 strongly favors not having to play postflop with 55. Also, the OP indicated he was trapping. His prize pool equity is worse when he gets called than when he folds, and much worse than when his opponents all fold. Therefore, trapping is stupid in this case.

[bigt439]

I think you give your opponents a chance to outplay you on the flop, yourself the chance to make an incorrect fold against an sb push, and decrease your value against bb's range. The bb is calling a push with almost any hand that he's repushing and then some, including hands we want out like K8s or JTo that he would likely fold to a push. We also let him see a flop much cheaper, with a wider range of hands, if he opts to do so. SB also has a wider repush range than calling range and most of those hands we would like out. Sometimes this works out nicely when BB pushes an A2o he would've folded, but I think this is strongly outweighed by the other factors.

I do not like how this hand was played.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
1) It alters both potential Villains' re-raising ranges. It will probably loosen them some. If they were calling a push with {88+,ATs+,AJo+,KQ}, maybe now they're re-raising with {33+,A8s+,A9o,KJs+,KQo}. The difference in prize pool equity over any span of potential holdings where you get all-in preflop isn't that much: about 0.8% better to push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hit on the same point in a PM I sent the original poster after the 1st thread got locked. And this loosening of pushing standards is exactly what you don't want with 55.

I also said that I'd like the play MUCH more if he had TT+ because now you don't mind hands like KT, A8, and 66-77 coming over the top. I mentioned all these as hands that might fold to a push (which you'd want with 55) but come over the top of a smaller raise (which you'd want with TT+).

To make a long story short, with 55, you're basically hoping to be a 51% fav. in the best case scenario so you'd want to push to decrease action. Taking the blinds with 55 is perfectly fine but it's a tough hand to play for value at this point in a SNG.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's better to do this with other hands than low pairs), look up past posts by Lorinda and David Sklansky (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=genpok&Number=592164& Searchpage=2&Main=592164&Words=David+Sklansky&topi c=&Search=true#Post592164) on similar situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

The situation in Sklansky's hand is very different. In that hand, you and the SB both have 30bb+. In fact in Sklansky's example moving all-in does not seem to me to be a reasonable option.

[Slim Pickens]

Sklansky also has AJ, which is much easier to play postflop than 55.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
There are many winning strategies, some of which have a higher ROI and some of which look very different from what is currently popular here. Many dangerous opponents follow different strategies, and it is worth understanding them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement. However, in this instance I prefer pushing since if you get flat called just about any flop not containing a 5 is going to be very difficult to play, and if the SB or BB pushes over you pre-flop, you're going to have the correct odds and have to call anyway.

[wuwei]

I'm the one who asked Durron to unlock the thread, so I suppose I better respond, eh? Pzhon made a thoughful post, and I hate to see that get no discussion because we're all off insulting each other and waving our e-penises in the air.

Ooops, I just realized I've been reading this hand wrong the entire time. Lovely. I thought the short stack was in the BB, and the big stack was in between us. That's a much more interesting situation.

Of course I agree that the idea of "trapping" the big stack is misguided. If I thought he was tight and rarely calls the min raise, then I think it's ok. The idea of raising only as much as it takes is an important concept that us pushbots often forget. However, as others have already covered well we don't want to let the BB see a cheap flop when we have no room to maneuver and a hand that's hard to play.

Meh, I should read things a bit closer the first time I look at them.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm the one who asked Durron to unlock the thread, so I suppose I better respond, eh? Pzhon made a thoughful post, and I hate to see that get no discussion because we're all off insulting each other and waving our e-penises in the air.

Ooops, I just realized I've been reading this hand wrong the entire time. Lovely. I thought the short stack was in the BB, and the big stack was in between us. That's a much more interesting situation.

Of course I agree that the idea of "trapping" the big stack is misguided. If I thought he was tight and rarely calls the min raise, then I think it's ok. The idea of raising only as much as it takes is an important concept that us pushbots often forget. However, as others have already covered well we don't want to let the BB see a cheap flop when we have no room to maneuver and a hand that's hard to play.

Meh, I should read things a bit closer the first time I look at them.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh...this hand isnt all that interesting either way. But I conceed that if the "shorter" stack were in the BB then OP's play would be more reasonable (planning to fold if SB-"larger" stack pushes).

These stacks are not all that discrepent and therefore there are probably a number of ways to mess up this hand, while at the same time there a lot of ways to not really go that wrong.

Wow. A new thread? Based on my hand? Flattered /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe mathematically it was the wrong play. I went with that play based on that particular table. I was gunning for 1st at that time.

Again, I push alot, am a winning SNG player, and am all about FE. But that time I went with instinct - which might or might not be wrong.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. A new thread? Based on my hand? Flattered /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

pzhon had a good point and the thread could have been interesting without the OMG PUSH U SUCK comments (which wuwei pointed out to me over PM). This was easier than trying to edit/delete/reorganize the other replies.

[Slim Pickens]

Well, it's an interesting hand but I never liked your logic for the raise. In general, you don't want to be called at all here. Your prize pool equity is higher when everybody folds, and by quite a bit. You need a very powerful starting hand to want a call. If you had AJo instead of 55, the play makes a lot more sense for reasons I've already pointed out.

Here's an example (from jman) where the prize pool equities of your hand don't change drastically when you change your play.

[ QUOTE ]
9 Handed, all stacks about even. We have t800 chips and A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP, folded to us.
Blinds 50/100.
If we push, we are called by AJ+, 88+, and we usually pick up the blinds. We do that math and realize a push is better than a fold. But what about the third option?
What if we raise to t275?

(Ignore calls for a second)
Now we get pushed back at with A6+, KQ, 44+. So, the same thing happens as when as we push if they have AJ+, 88+, but now, we also get all in with AT-A6, 77-44, and KQ, who would've folded to our push. This is a range that we are 62.5% against. Since we aren't on the bubble, get all in on a flip doesn't hurt nearly as much, and I think this is a risk worth taking (getting all in with 77-44) for the chance to get all in with hands we dominate.

[/ QUOTE ]

By assuming that you are calling any push, I can make a case for what your prize pool equity is in both cases. I put you in CO+2, give you ATs and have you push into the remaining field all calling with 88+, ATs+, AJo+. You get no call 72.9% of the time. SNGPT says this is a clear (+3.9%) push. If you have ATs and the ranges are all 44+,A5s+,A6+, KQo, KQs, you get no call 46.9% of the time and this is still a clear (3.7%) "push." With 77, the numbers are 3.7% and 3.5%.

What this says is that you have to play the hand postflop for a profit those times you are called.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky also has AJ, which is much easier to play postflop than 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't really read too many posts here, but in nlhe 55 is much much easier to play than AJ. I'll let others elaborate.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Several people insisted that the OP played so horribly he can't possibly be a winning player

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I was one of the people who said he couldn't be beating his game, I guess I'll reply. My comment wasn't in response to the actual hand. Everybody makes questionable plays (I think questionable is generous here, but that's not the point) and experiments with different lines. My statement was in reponse to the OPs attitude and reasoning that since his 55 was a favorite against any 2 random that he welcomed any and all action.

While there are many ways to "fck a lightbulb," I'm pretty sure this one will hurt more than most.

[raptor517]

in this spot, there is NO WAY i would ever even consider folding if the big stack pushed. thats ridiculous to fold there after making it 700 and getting shoved on by either player. i dont hate making it 700 pf, but you open yerself up to a lot of problems. imo, pushing the smaller pairs here is the best play, and imo, by quite a lot.

i raise all sorts of hands, but there is no way you can justify a fold if either of them push after making it 700. holla

Curious, is your name Raptor51 on party? Someone by that name was at my table today.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's an interesting hand but I never liked your logic for the raise. In general, you don't want to be called at all here. Your prize pool equity is higher when everybody folds, and by quite a bit. You need a very powerful starting hand to want a call. If you had AJo instead of 55, the play makes a lot more sense for reasons I've already pointed out.

Here's an example (from jman) where the prize pool equities of your hand don't change drastically when you change your play.

[ QUOTE ]
9 Handed, all stacks about even. We have t800 chips and A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP, folded to us.
Blinds 50/100.
If we push, we are called by AJ+, 88+, and we usually pick up the blinds. We do that math and realize a push is better than a fold. But what about the third option?
What if we raise to t275?

(Ignore calls for a second)
Now we get pushed back at with A6+, KQ, 44+. So, the same thing happens as when as we push if they have AJ+, 88+, but now, we also get all in with AT-A6, 77-44, and KQ, who would've folded to our push. This is a range that we are 62.5% against. Since we aren't on the bubble, get all in on a flip doesn't hurt nearly as much, and I think this is a risk worth taking (getting all in with 77-44) for the chance to get all in with hands we dominate.

[/ QUOTE ]

By assuming that you are calling any push, I can make a case for what your prize pool equity is in both cases. I put you in CO+2, give you ATs and have you push into the remaining field all calling with 88+, ATs+, AJo+. You get no call 72.9% of the time. SNGPT says this is a clear (+3.9%) push. If you have ATs and the ranges are all 44+,A5s+,A6+, KQo, KQs, you get no call 46.9% of the time and this is still a clear (3.7%) "push." With 77, the numbers are 3.7% and 3.5%.

What this says is that you have to play the hand postflop for a profit those times you are called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post.

Part of my logic at the time for not pushing was that I didn't want an opponent's overcards to get to see all five cards. Overcards are 30% to hit on flop. So my logic was, 70% of the time, the flop is dry for him (assuming overcards) and he'll fold.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky also has AJ, which is much easier to play postflop than 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't really read too many posts here, but in nlhe 55 is much much easier to play than AJ. I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can figure out where you stand with a 6BB pot and 5BB behind, and you have 55 on the button on a QT6 rainbow flop, and your opponent who called a raise for a good chunk of his stack preflop checks to you, you're wasting your time playing low-limit SNG's. If you're stabbing for that miracle AJ5 flop where you get action and are way ahead, why bother looking at your cards until after the flop? At least with AJ, you know you're only beating a total bluff if you miss, and 1/3 of the time you're almost certain you have the best hand.

[Slim Pickens]

Calling an all-in with 55 after raising to 700 is a lot like splitting eights against a dealer's ten in BJ. It's -EV, but less so than the alternative, so you do it.