Multi-tableing 15-30 and 30-60

[Vincent Lepore]

I was just curious what kind of bankroll one would need to multi-table 4-6 15-30's. And also how much for maybe 4 30-60's? And what kinds of swings should one expect in each respectively? Thanks for any help. Oh and also if you can get away with playing that many games at thoise levels or do the players play better and you need to conentrate on each game more individually where you should only play 2 or 3? I mean can you play 4 to 6 in a robotic solid preflop style and beat the games almost as good as focusing hard on or 2? Thanks agian for any help!

[MNpoker]

The answer to every question is:
It depends

How well can you concentrate and play 4 tables?
How good are you?
How soft are the games?

You will almost certainly see a significant decrease in your win rate going from 2 tables to 4. You will also see more variance.

Your post makes it sound like you haven't played much at those levels or you wouldn't be asking about robotic preflop play (and seemingly be dismissing that at those levels the key is POST flop play).

[ggbman]

You should not just start playing 4-6 tables, you should work your way up. For 15-30, $18,000+ is a good starting point, for $30-$60 maybe between $40,000-$45,000.

Your swings will be a function of your edge in the games. Good players will have maybe 2 or 3 200BB downswings in a year if you are playing 25k hands a month. Players with a negligable edge shouldn't play these games to begin with because their swings will be astronomical relative to what they have previously experienced in terms of BB.

[Vincent Lepore]

Is that 18,000 for 1 15-30 or for 4? and 40 to 45 for 1 30-60 or 4?

As far as working my way up to 4 games. I have multi-tabled 4 15-30's already and sometimes 5 or 6 for awhile. But its only been months. And sometimes i only play 2 or 3. Depends my mood and how many juicy games i find. And i haven't hit i big downswing yet so dont know how bad it might be and was curious what to expect.

This isn't vince btw i'm a buddy of his from out of town and am having trouble with my laptop so he let me use his computer and id as i don't have one yet. So was that for 1 game each those bankroll requirements? Thanks again.

[ggbman]

The figures i mentioned were sufficient for playing as many tables as you want at those limits. Also, please note that i feel those should be the lower end of the bankroll requirements, the more you have the better.

[ QUOTE ]
The figures i mentioned were sufficient for playing as many tables as you want at those limits. Also, please note that i feel those should be the lower end of the bankroll requirements, the more you have the better.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, 1000BB is my comfort zone.

[ggbman]

Yeah, but if i said that everyone would call me a pussy.

[Vincent Lepore]

1) concentration isn't good at 4 but its not good at 1 either lol. i can handle 4 fairly easy as far as acting on hands and stuff

2)i'm a solid pro. how good i dont know. but i know excellent preflop strategy and at least pretty good post flop strategy.

3) wel the 15-30's it varies but usually kinda soft. 30-60's i dont know havent played those limits often enough to know but i hear varied stories from much harder to thats where the fish are.

Yes i ex[ect to see a decrease from 2 games to 4 but will you make more money in 4 because of extra hands played plus money earned in rakeback?

Again i have played a decent amount of hands playing multiple 15-30 games but very little 30-60. I don't get why you dont understand robotic play preflop? If you play multiple games you must play somewhat ropbotic preflop to handle those games. As far as postflop i am not discounting it but obviously its hard to have a robotic postflop strategy as the situation can be different. But even than postflop play is sometimes robotic when it comes to playing certain hands. Like big pair i'm raising or reraising coming in preflop and i'm raisng or reraising on flop unless unusal board or overcard flops.

Btw i dont think the key is postflop play. Alot of people say and think that but i disagree. The key is preflop play. Obviously if you play excellent preflop and excellent postflop you will do much better than someon excellent preflop and good postflop. But preflop is much more importnat than postflop imo as long as you dont play bad postflop. The reason being is you have alot more decisions preflop because every hand you get dealt is a decision. If you are making bad prelfop decisions in will cost you alot of money. Plus it will put you into bad postflop position causing you to make more errors and cost you more money. So yes i have play at those levels bu dont agree with you saying postflop is more important.

[Baulucky]

You aren't ready.

Welcome to the tables though.

[Vincent Lepore]

You mean to tell me that 18k is enough for 1 15-30 game or for 10 games at a time at 15-30? I have heard this and understand the theory kinda. But others say the swings are so much bigger with multiple games the bankroll has to widen a ton. Your theroy is it doenst matter if 1 or 10 because its still 15-30 and your just playing one 15-30 but getting alot of hands quicker at 15-30 right? did i make that clear? Thanks again

[Vincent Lepore]

Btw i had a buddy who plays for a living who played 2 to 4 15-30's and had a huge downswing of like 23 to 25 k or something. Is this possible(because obviosly 18k wouldnt have been enough for him) or is it more likely he had a big leak in his game? And he was a winning solid decnet pro playing live 15-30 before this online fiasco.

[whodaman]

how many tables you play at once only affects variance because as you increase the number of tables, you decrease winrate, which = more downswings.

If you were a 1bb/100 winner at 1 table and a 1bb/100 winner at 4 tables, you would experience the same downswings just at an accelerated pace(timewise) at 4 tables.

[whodaman]

anything is possible
but most likely he wasn't a winner.
If your a loser, it doesn't matter how big your bankroll is, eventually you'll lose it

[Vincent Lepore]

Obviously you aren't ready either. Have you given up yet?

[Baulucky]

Yes.

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw i had a buddy who plays for a living who played 2 to 4 15-30's and had a huge downswing of like 23 to 25 k or something. Is this possible(because obviosly 18k wouldnt have been enough for him) or is it more likely he had a big leak in his game? And he was a winning solid decnet pro playing live 15-30 before this online fiasco.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is I think an example of blaming variance (or luck) for a deficiency in skill. If you swing down 25K playing 15/30, I think you are almost certainly playing losing poker during much of that time. He may have been a winning player in the past, but games change and failure to adapt can turn you into a loser. Also, your game may change as you get bored and play looser, or as you learn to bluff more, you start to think everyone else is bluffing you too and so start calling down too much.
Fact is, poker is a very dynamic environment. Small changes can lead to significantly different results. That's why it's so important to monitor your results, especially your big downswings. Don't automatically blame them on luck. You need to keep examining your game.
I'll say it again. During the period your friend lost 25K playing 15/30, he was probably the sucker during much of that time.

[CardSharpCook]

15/30 isn't "easy". It isn't like you can sit at those tables and magically watch your bank account increase. Yes, PF decisions are important, but the bets on the later streets are twice as big. Setting yourself up for a check/raise that you "have to" call down is just as bad as 4 PF "bad decisions". A lot of players at this level have the PF down, but call down way too much, turning themselves into breakeven or losing players. (I have a problem with this too.) Other players get too agro and spew money on the later streets. One good spew can cost about 4BBs or 8 poor PF decisions. It is important to follow the PF rules, but post-flop is just as important. You can't play baseball without hitting AND fielding.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
or is it more likely he had a big leak in his game?

[/ QUOTE ]

ding, ding.

[ QUOTE ]
And he was a winning solid decnet pro playing live 15-30 before this online fiasco.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apples vs. Oranges.

[Smoothcall]

Why would you say apples vs. oranges? Its still 15-30 holdem. If you know how to play 15-30 holdem it shouldn't be apples and oranges i don't think.

[CardSharpCook]

Golden Delicious apples and Grannie Smith apples

[Ryno]

"During the period your friend lost 25K playing 15/30, he was probably the sucker during much of that time. "

My post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3959659&an=0&page=0# Post3959659) in General sheds some light on the topic.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
You should not just start playing 4-6 tables, you should work your way up. For 15-30, $18,000+ is a good starting point, for $30-$60 maybe between $40,000-$45,000.

Your swings will be a function of your edge in the games. Good players will have maybe 2 or 3 200BB downswings in a year if you are playing 25k hands a month. Players with a negligable edge shouldn't play these games to begin with because their swings will be astronomical relative to what they have previously experienced in terms of BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez this bankroll stuff is starting to get out of control. 45k and conservativef number for the $30? That is silly. Assuming you have a win rate > 1bb/100 $35k is certainly sufficient. I actuallly think 25k shoudl do it.

[Smoothcall]

And do you agree with the others that it doesn't matter if 1 30-60 or 4 or 5? You think 25k is nough to ply 5 30-60 full time ?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but if i said that everyone would call me a pussy.

[/ QUOTE ]


1000BB is probably about right if you have a hard time adjusting to the $$$ loss. 500BB is plenty to get comfortable for me though.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you say apples vs. oranges? Its still 15-30 holdem. If you know how to play 15-30 holdem it shouldn't be apples and oranges i don't think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You don't think. At all.

15/30 Live is equal to 3/6 online.
15/30 Online is equal to 40/80-60/120 live.

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you say apples vs. oranges? Its still 15-30 holdem. If you know how to play 15-30 holdem it shouldn't be apples and oranges i don't think.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say this as if 15-30 holdem has different rules to x-y holdem that's of a different number. The $ value of the bets doesn't matter, it's the skill and playing style of your opposition that matters. And 15-30 online vs 15-30 live have extreme differences in the things that matter.

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
15/30 Live is equal to 3/6 online.
15/30 Online is equal to 40/80-60/120 live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you seem to need a few people to confirm everything, I'll go ahead and nod my head on this one. I can't confirm the 2nd one, since I've never played that high (the live end), but I've heard similiar statements.

I have a strong suspicion that this is the reason your friend lost his money.

Also, your failure to grasp the simple, obvious, and irrefutable concept that the number of tables you play doesnt effct BR requirments (directly, only winrates) is... interesting.

[Smoothcall]

???? Why the insult? Did i upset you? Are you an unhappy person? Did you blow the money you won in that freroll tourney again in the 15-30 game? And now want to try and hurt others to feel your own pain? And you want to pretend you lost because you were playing angainst 60-120 players in that 15 game? Players that play 60-120 live play(as a whole) genrally are alot of tougher than online 15-30 and its not close. Why? You ask? Well because 60-120 plays like a 60-120 game and 15-30 plays like a 15-30 game. Thats why!

If 15-30 online is like 40/80-60/120 then how can the bankroll requirementfor 15-30 online be only 18k? And 30-60 online be only 40 to 45k one guy said 25k? If you think 18k is enough to play 60-120 live your dreamin.

So you think the 3-6 is like 15-30 live? looks like someone else isn't thinking? The 3-6 does not play like a 15-30. It plays like a 3-6 or 4-8 game as far as player ability.

Do me a favor keep your insults to a minimum you make yourself look silly.

[Smoothcall]

I'm glad you find this interesting. What do you mean by thats why my friend lost? I know other friends who went from 15-30 live to 15-30 online and did very good. Again not sure what your getting at? Are you saying he lost because he wasn't ready to play 15-30 online(60-120 equivalent you guys think) because he wasnt good enough because 15-30 live player isn't good enogh to beat a 15-30 online?

This is the 2nd post i got that was negative. Answering in an insulting manner. Not a harsh insulting post but insulting nonetheless. Why? Did i insult you? I asked a few simple questions and u act in a negstive light towards me. Why?

I dont insult anyobody til they do me. I dont mind you disagreeing. And i value everyone opinion, but no need to be insulting just because i might be naive to online bankroll requirements for mutlitabling. All i'm saying is be nice. I didnt insult you so dont insult me. But i hope you show me things i didnt know because then it will mean i am getting something out of this. But be positive in your criticisms or at least neutral.

[obsidian]

[ QUOTE ]
Do me a favor keep your insults to a minimum you make yourself look silly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, you really have no idea do you? Similiar limits when comparing online vs live are almost always much tougher online. This is made up by multitabling, speed of play, and lower rake online. Oh, and you are correct in that you need a much higher bankroll to play 60/120 live than 15/30 online. However, since when has bankroll requirements been a gauge for how tough a game is?

[Smoothcall]

I didn't say 15-30 online wasn't tougher than live 15-30. I would say generally it is. Although not always. But that is a far cry from calling 15-30 online = to 60-120 live. You go get your 15-30 online players and i'll take the 60-120 live players and we will see who are better. But i guess i guess i have no idea right?

Btw why the insult? Did i insult you? Just answer if you disagree. No need to insult and get personal. The other 2 guys insulted me first. I didnt start anyhting with anyone. And your the 3rd person whose insulted unprovoked. Lets just talk poker. Leave the insults at the door.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw i dont think the key is postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.orlyowl.com/orly.jpg

[Angelina]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw i had a buddy who plays for a living who played 2 to 4 15-30's and had a huge downswing of like 23 to 25 k or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unusual. When playing 3 or more tables one gets into the long run faster (1 hour of 3-table play equals 3 hours of 1-table play) and a downswing like this usually means that your buddy may be playing with EV close to 0. He may be a winning player, but when one's EV is not solid, variance explodes and it can hurt.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Btw i had a buddy who plays for a living who played 2 to 4 15-30's and had a huge downswing of like 23 to 25 k or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unusual. When playing 3 or more tables one gets into the long run faster (1 hour of 3-table play equals 3 hours of 1-table play) and a downswing like this usually means that your buddy may be playing with EV close to 0. He may be a winning player, but when one's EV is not solid, variance explodes and it can hurt.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? Random?

Edit: Mind telling us who the DERB is?

[Smoothcall]

I bet that means your too loose preflop? Thats what they all say so they have an excuse to play bad preflop. Oh and because they will outplay there opponents postflop to make up for playing bad before the flop.

[Angelina]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Mind telling us who the DERB is?

[/ QUOTE ]

A ghost in the machine.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Mind telling us who the DERB is?

[/ QUOTE ]

A ghost in the machine.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew it! I was right all along.

[Smoothcall]

Thanks Angelina. The guy i am referring to actually wrote abdul about it. I forget what he said about it but it was somthing close to yours. Although i thought he said he might have a good EV in the game and it could still happen. But i got this from my friend so i'm not at all quoting abdul on that. I dont think this is abdul is it? You his buddy right? Was wondering if thats what made you post cause he asked abdul about it couple months ago i think. Anyway thanks again.

[veganmav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Mind telling us who the DERB is?

[/ QUOTE ]

A ghost in the machine.

-Ange
http://www.fekali.com

[/ QUOTE ]

so you mean he's a bot... i see

[DpR]

Yes, playing more than 1 table at a time has nothing to do with bankroll requirements.

[CardSharpCook]

If you play a lot of both types of poker (live/online) you will certainly notice that online plays much tougher. Probably the simple reason that the fish play so many more hands and get better explains it. While I've never played 60-120, my live 30-60 game plays like the Party 15. Sweating players who play small stakes, I see that those SS games play like a live 15-30. Live 3-6 plays like those microlimits on Stars.

As for BR requirements, it is a function of the limit you play and your skill, not how many hands/tables you play. 500-1000BBs is what you need.

[AceHigh]

Online games have always been tougher than live games, that's just the way it's been.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
A ghost in the machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

DERB is a bot.

[ QUOTE ]
You should not just start playing 4-6 tables, you should work your way up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more. As a multi-tabling newbie, I've found that my concentration and decision-making falls off with more than two tables. It is sort of like trying to run before I've learned how to walk (or crawl).

I've also found that my half-decent technology of a 3 year old once high-powered laptop is insufficient. IMHO, to really multi-table effectively, one needs a larger display, more display graphics horsepower, more CPU/memory horsepower, and the more obvious reliable always-on broadband connection. The key is identifying where your bottlebecks are if any. In my case, I have a decent connection and decent amounts of CPU/memory power. But a once large 15" laptop display and relatively weak graphics power don't cut it.

The computing horsepower weaknesses may cause latencies which take away valuable seconds of decision-making time.

The other thing as others have hinted at many times, is instant or near-real-time recognition of opponents and adjusting for their play. It is one thing to be multi-tabling against 4 tables full of LAGs. It is quite another to adjust to different mixes on each table (e.g., one table all TAGs and LAGs, one table Rocks and Mice, one table Loose passives, one table a mix of everything). For me, this has been an area where I really have to concentrate before making a decision.