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View Full Version : so we meet again... 10/20 QQ on Party vs same villian

11-16-2005, 08:28 AM
MP2 is our villian, he is 24/17/2.7 after around 500 hands.

What do you do after he donks the turn? Comments on a line for the river would also be appreciated.

We also clashed earlier in the session, that hand history precedes the one I am interested in. It has results included. Note this is just to set up the second hand, I'm not really looking for advice on hand #1.


Hand #1 -- The Setup
Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)
================================
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Villain checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ks Kc (a pair of kings.)
Villain has Jc Jh (a pair of jacks.)
Hero wins 6.60 BB.
</font>
================================



Hand #2 -- The Titans Clash Again
Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)
================================
Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, Villain calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero ?????
==============================


Thanks for your help.
private joker
11-16-2005, 08:48 AM
I'm calling down. I'd like to see a showdown, and I'm not putting him on AA/KK/TT just yet. If he has JJ then he has 2 outs. I don't think he stop-n-goes with AK, so the range of his hands that you beat is getting pretty narrow. If he does have JJ, then he has 2 outs and there's no reason to raise and get yourself 3-bet by AA/TT. By raising and folding to a 3-bet, you also rob yourself of a chance to hit a 2-outer on the river should a Q fall.

I'd spend the same 2 bets you'd get by raising the turn on a turn and river call. It approximates a WA/WB line, which I think pretty much applies here.
11-16-2005, 10:44 AM
I raise the river.

I think he's got JJ again.
hemstock
11-16-2005, 11:17 AM
why not cap preflop in hand #1?
11-16-2005, 11:27 AM
Why would JJ bet here? Does he put me on AK that reliably? If so, why not 3 bet the flop and lead the turn?

Also, would you raise a river Ace, King, club, or Jack?

The thing about this turn donk bet is he is that he is doing one of three things:
1. Deny me a free card if I have AK, and gain value with his pair (pocket or on the board)
2. Try to get me to raise again so he can 3 bet a very good hand (AA, KK, TT, 77)
3. Semi bluff with AK, club draw, or both.

I consider #3 very unlikely, but it is possible.

I am unsure what percentages to assign him for the 3 possible moves he is making here.

I think the impact of the previous KK vs JJ hand is important. In that hand I didn’t cap preflop (I hoped to induce more action on later streets). Also, he played JJ pretty passively on the flop with just one overcard, and got frozen when the ace came, not even bluffing at it in case I had KQ/QJ. So we both played pretty passively considering our holdings. Now we are both showing aggression on the flop, and he donks the turn.
11-16-2005, 11:28 AM
I wanted to induce more action on later streets.
11-16-2005, 11:41 AM
JJ has 2 outs, but AT has 5, AK has 6, and he could also have turned an additional 8 outs with a club draw. I would really like to charge these draws, and JJ will call down if a brick hits. I don't think this is a classic WA/WB situation.

Does anyone like raise and fold to a 3 bet? What do you do if you raise and the river is an ace king or club? Or if you raise and he check-raises a blank river?
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 12:02 PM
raise the turn.

also, not capping preflop in that first hand seems awful.
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 12:02 PM
he just 3-bet. what makes you think you're not going to get action? what happens if an ace falls?
Buckmulligan
11-16-2005, 12:05 PM
Cap preflop. Postflop if you are going to check, check the river. Although our prospects look bad on the turn, I think we should still bet it.
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 12:09 PM
way to ignore his post ENTIRELY!
11-16-2005, 12:17 PM
For hand #1, I forego the pf cap with KK very rarely, this is one of those rare events.

I'd rather not analyze hand #1. I'm more concerned with how to play hand #2 given the way hand #1 went down.
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 12:20 PM
if there's anything to learn from hand 1, for villain, it's perhaps that you'll get tricksy.

donking the turn is pretty straightfoward. i would raise and expect to be called, and not be at all deterred from raising a river blank if donked again.
11-16-2005, 12:25 PM
Yeah, villain probably has me pegged as tricky. I think raising the turn is probably best.

Raising a river donk bet makes me nervous. Especially if an ace falls.
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 12:26 PM
i'd be tempted to fold on an ace river against another donk.
flopmonster
11-16-2005, 01:16 PM
I think raise and fold to a 3 bet seems like the right move here. Youre virtually never folding the winner and I think the one hand beats you here if you are called is KK.
11-16-2005, 03:13 PM
Results:

I call the turn, river is a 6c. Villain bets I call. Villain has 88 I win the pot and curse my weak passive ways.
ErrantNight
11-16-2005, 03:39 PM
Your attempt to get fancy in that first hand cost you money there. And then you followed it up by playing weakly in the second hand.

Try playing a little more straightforwardly aggressive for a lil bit.
11-16-2005, 04:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Try playing a little more straightforwardly aggressive for a lil bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice, I'll take it. Thanks to all who commented in the thread.
ZootMurph
11-16-2005, 04:02 PM
Hand 1 I'm capping preflop and betting each street. He has 17% PFR... He could have something like QJ or worse here. I don't even play as many hands as he raises, LOL. You have to believe you have the best hand until he raises you postflop. Then, you STILL have to call down.

Villain is MP2 and 3 bets. Could it be with AT? Quite possibly. Could also be Jacks or AK:clubs:. Gotta raise the turn. If he 3 bets, call down. If he just calls, call a river bet and check behind if a club or overcard hits the river, otherwise bet if checked to for value.