how's my river play? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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zPro

11-16-2005, 03:48 AM

Just sat down, no reads.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

tyler_cracker

11-16-2005, 03:54 AM

I don't fold to river check/raises enough. Nice hand.

11-16-2005, 04:02 AM

very bad IMO but i might be wrong.

The pot is already 12.5BB, might as well call. If he has A3o then so be it. You only ahve to win like 8% of the time (I didn't do the math) to make this call profitable.

If he had the A, why would he wait till the turn to raise/bet?

11-16-2005, 04:11 AM

Confused noob wonders...

You think he has an ace? And he slowplayed the flop AND the turn?

Are you 92%+ sure about it despite the fact that you have "no reads"? 92% sure is real darn sure.

(Corrected to take out bogus argument about AT and A9s.)

zPro

11-16-2005, 05:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Confused noob wonders...

You think he has an ace? And he slowplayed the flop AND the turn?

Are you 92%+ sure about it despite the fact that you have "no reads"? 92% sure is real darn sure.

(Corrected to take out bogus argument about AT and A9s.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking about this for a while.
I'm 95% sure he has a weak ace.
At these limits, I don't see anyone check-raising the PF raiser on the river w/o an ace.
I played it like I held an ace.

I also see how calling the c/r is acceptable.
He could be straight up bluffing, have a Queen, even some low PP.
Good stuff to think about when moving up limits.

Weatherhead03

11-16-2005, 05:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he had the A, why would he wait till the turn to raise/bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

The people we play against dont know and do the things we do. People in the micros tend to be very passive.

In this particular hand im 95% sure that villian called the turn and river with a weak ace and had Hero beat the whole way. I like the river fold.

11-16-2005, 05:58 AM

He has a weak Ace and slowplayed the turn and river because he thought Hero had a stronger Ace, because of his raise preflop.
After the second ace he realises there is only a small chance Hero has an Ace and decides to raise.

Like already has been said, the players on those limits are very passive.

11-16-2005, 08:01 AM

I dont like the river fold.

BoogerFace

11-16-2005, 10:26 AM

*grunch*

I'm calling this river, pot is too big.

jaxUp

11-16-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

After the second ace he realises there is only a small chance Hero has an Ace and decides to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very certain villain here has an ace as well, but this isn't even his reasoning. His reasoning is now: "I have three of a kind instead of a pair, three of a kind is way better than a pair" In situations like this, at this level, villain is rarely considering hero's range, and only the absolute value of their hand.

Bill Lumberg

11-16-2005, 10:48 AM

I’d check/call. Why? What are button and MP1 calling down with? In fact, you are the PFR and 3 people called your flop bet with an A on board. You think one of them has an A? How about after two of them called a turn bet? And it’s not a draw heavy board. If they don’t have an ace, it’s a good place to induce a bluff.

silencio

11-16-2005, 11:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down, no reads.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 5 players seeing the turn with you. One of them, if not more, has a weak ace. the others might be calling with bottom pair/a worse king, but their is also a possibily that a K will put a straight on board. I check the turn and see if I have pot odds to see the river for two pair.

The river is a check. If one player bets and the others fold I might call. I will not overcall.

numeri

11-16-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have 5 players seeing the turn with you. One of them, if not more, has a weak ace. the others might be calling with bottom pair/a worse king, but their is also a possibily that a K will put a straight on board. I check the turn and see if I have pot odds to see the river for two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
How often? Every time? You're missing out on a ton of value if you immediately assume that someone who calls a bet on an A-high flop has an ace.

adsman

11-16-2005, 11:51 AM

11-16-2005, 11:54 AM

Don't we have to be really really certain he has an ace here to make this fold. I know when I started playing, I would call with 2nd pair, and if the high card on the board paired later, I would assume I probably had the best hand. Don't you think some people think this way? I think there is at least a 10% chance he doesn't have the ace, which makes it worth a call.

imported_The Vibesman

11-16-2005, 12:05 PM

To those saying there are five opponents on the turn, there are "only" three.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't we have to be really really certain he has an ace here to make this fold. I know when I started playing, I would call with 2nd pair, and if the high card on the board paired later, I would assume I probably had the best hand. Don't you think some people think this way? I think there is at least a 10% chance he doesn't have the ace, which makes it worth a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought of as well, there are some players who think like this. That said, when the 2nd ace falls there are likely few players who are calling our bet with a worse hand than our queens. I think I like to check/call the river.

silencio

11-16-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 5 players seeing the turn with you. One of them, if not more, has a weak ace. the others might be calling with bottom pair/a worse king, but their is also a possibily that a K will put a straight on board. I check the turn and see if I have pot odds to see the river for two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
How often? Every time? You're missing out on a ton of value if you immediately assume that someone who calls a bet on an A-high flop has an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 5 players see the flop and call my flop bet(being Preflop raiser) I figure an ace a large percentage of the time. Remember that button and sb cold called a raise here (this is not my only reason to think they have an ace, but it is something).

I just noticed something.The hand description says 5 players on the flop, but I only see 4 players in the actual hand, what's up with that?

Anyway, I don't see a flush draw on the flop, and although the board is somewhat connected it is not really draw heavy (unless hand distribution was really something for this one)to make 5 (ok, 4) players smoothly continue to the turn.
OP gave no read and I don't really know how 0.5/1 at UB is like, but if there are no aces around every high card will probably compelete a straight draw for someone.

tyler_cracker

11-16-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. This could be a weak Ace, but this could also very well be a scare card donk. I don't mind the bet/fold line here, but without any reads at all I think that I would have checked behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

A scare card donk check/raise? Do you guys see those often?

bet/fold > check/call > check/fold > bet/call

You give up too much value by check/calling. Opponents will call with worse hands (a weaker queen), but not bet them. Only a tricky opponent is bluff check/raising with a weaker hand, and based on Villain's play in this hand, he doesn't look too tricky. Thus, bet/fold.

Check/call is close because we might induce a bluff from a weaker hand, but against passive opponents, value betting is better.

Bet/call is spewing. If you want the showdown, check/call.

2+2 wannabe

11-16-2005, 04:05 PM

this hand is weird

because I suck I call this river - at .50/1 weird [censored] like 77/QJ will come up

just 5 minutes ago at 1/2 6-max I had someone c/r the river on me with 7 high after calling down with the 7th nut no pair no draw