Betting time and other online tells in SNG's

[eniven]

Now, most advice I've read about online poker mentions that you shouldn't read too much into online tells such as the time it takes a player to act. This makes sense to me.

However, I'm also usually careful not to give away tells in terms of the time it takes me to bet/check/fold etc... I generally do this by trying to take approximately the same amount of time to make my selection. Usually I know what my action will be before the action gets to me and I try to wait a consistent few seconds most times before choosing my action.

However on occasion I alter my betting/checking time in order to ellicit a specific response from my opponent.

For instance:
Say there are three players left in a 10+1 including myself, and I am in the big blind.
The button calls, the SB folds and I have a junk hand and check.
The flop comes down and I've flopped a gutshot straight draw with little else in the way of possibilities.
I'm a medium stack and the pot is small, so I don't want to bet at this flop, but I would like to see the next card.
In situations similar to this, I may often let my timer run down until I have about 1/4 the time I started with before checking.

Often times I find that even aggressive opponents will check behind me, giving me a free card thinking that I may be going for the check-raise. Many opponents will notice if you suddenly alter your action time in this manner. If your opponent does bet instead of checking, you can just fold, and in this case, nothing is lost.

In cases where I try this and get a free card, which does not complete my draw, often times I find I can bet the turn regardless and the opponent will fold because I've tricked them into thinking that I have a hand anyway.

Now, I'm not saying I make plays like this very often, but I do find that they can be successful when used sparingly in certain circumstances.

Does any one else have success in altering your action time or putting out other tells designed to ellicit certain actions from your opponent? Examples?

Thanks,
Eric
PS: I'm a bit of a newb, granted, but I did a search and couldn't find anything on this topic.

[lastsamurai]

yeah watch out...sometimes the player has to go pee..

[bigt439]

I didn't read your post because it is too long, but to sum up, yes, I think these things are somewhat important. I'm more concerned with projecting an image with my betting time than I am with monitoring others, but they're both marginally relevant.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read your post because it is too long, but to sum up, yes, I think these things are somewhat important. I'm more concerned with projecting an image with my betting time than I am with monitoring others, but they're both marginally relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also didn't read your post and agree.

One thing that I think is important is not putting too much (any?) stake in people taking a long time to act. This can be connection problems or a distraction in real life. However, when a player acts quickly, it's pretty safe to assume that their action required little thought.

[splashpot]

I didn't read the post either, lol. I agree it has some value, even if it is minimal. If a user takes more than 3-4 seconds though, it could mean a whole slew of things. I mainly focus on projecting an unreadable image myself. Whether I bet, check, or call, I try to take about 1-2 seconds every time no matter what. If I'm folding, I don't bother.

Well, I almost read the whole post.

I agree with everybody that moves like these might be slightly +EV on the low limit SNGs.

I also have a one common situation where betting time effects my playing. It's probably leak though.

I play 4 tables, and since I'm slow , sometimes table shows up where the half of my betting time has already been used. If it's marginal push situation, and especially if I have to push crap, I just usually fold, because I'm afraid that somebody got a read from my long "thinking time".

I'm sure I'm not alone here, but I often use my betting time as a deceptive tool when slowplaying. For example, if I flop a monster in LP and an EP bets, I will let my time run down to make it look like I am struggling with whether to call. A weaker player who does not know me at all will almost always think they can then steal the pot (or even value bet) with a bigger bet on the turn or river. If they make a small bet, I will either reraise the turn or river, depending on the circumstaces. However, a more sophisticated player will not always be fooled by this move, as it is quite common and obvious a lot of the time. Against a weak player, I think this is one of the most effective ways to use betting time deception to your advantage.

[Buccaneer]

When our "sophisticated" player runs down the timer I figure he had a phone call or bathroom break. The next time "sophisticated" player does it I have allready typed in >>OH NO! not the agonized decision bluff again! This is all it takes to stop this time wasting manuver. I try to make all clicks at about 2 seconds. If I want to represent a tough decision then I use 5, this way anyone "sophisticated" will pick it up and those that have no clue will still have no clue.

[mosdef]

The value added, if any, by studying this issue is much, much smaller than the value you would add by spending the time on something else. You are better off evaluating your game and looking at specific hands for faulty reasoning than you are worrying about whether or not your opponent who took 7 seconds to bet instead of 2 seconds is bluffing.

I agree that this whole area adds little value in general, and that usually the person is in the bathroom or touching themself...but the slow call move has doubled me up many times in STTs and MTTs. It's just something that works every so often in the right situation, that's all. And, I also agree not to let the time run all the way down (just longer than usual).

[DeathbySuckout]

[ QUOTE ]
The value added, if any, by studying this issue is much, much smaller than the value you would add by spending the time on something else. You are better off evaluating your game and looking at specific hands for faulty reasoning than you are worrying about whether or not your opponent who took 7 seconds to bet instead of 2 seconds is bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen, brotha.

There are soooo many factors that could be causing lag time between bets. Please do not spend too much time concerned with it. Especially at the lower level SnGs. Players are doing other things like surfing the internet while playing, eating, chasing their kids around the house /images/graemlins/cool.gif, and some are really spending the time to think. You can't tell the difference enough to matter. Multi tablers are always late with their bets, it just means they were betting on other tables.
And as far as your own image, people are not noticing your time between bets usually.

As mosdef said, exert this energy in studying HHs, or reading the boards.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
...but the slow call move has doubled me up many times in STTs and MTTs. It's just something that works every so often in the right situation, that's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the slow call worked?
Just because he donked off his stack after you slow called, it does not mean that he wouldn't have done that regardless of the time it took you to call.

It's like that great Simpsons dialog between Homer and Lisa:

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That's spacious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

[eniven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The value added, if any, by studying this issue is much, much smaller than the value you would add by spending the time on something else. You are better off evaluating your game and looking at specific hands for faulty reasoning than you are worrying about whether or not your opponent who took 7 seconds to bet instead of 2 seconds is bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen, brotha.

There are soooo many factors that could be causing lag time between bets. Please do not spend too much time concerned with it. Especially at the lower level SnGs. Players are doing other things like surfing the internet while playing, eating, chasing their kids around the house /images/graemlins/cool.gif, and some are really spending the time to think. You can't tell the difference enough to matter. Multi tablers are always late with their bets, it just means they were betting on other tables.
And as far as your own image, people are not noticing your time between bets usually.

As mosdef said, exert this energy in studying HHs, or reading the boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I agree completely. I'm not advocating reading into other people's betting times, I'm just saying that you can sometimes use your own betting time to manipulate other people's (i.e. mostly bad players) decisions.

I'm sure this is nothing new and was just wondering what sort of similar plays that other people make.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, I agree completely. I'm not advocating reading into other people's betting times, I'm just saying that you can sometimes use your own betting time to manipulate other people's (i.e. mostly bad players) decisions.

I'm sure this is nothing new and was just wondering what sort of similar plays that other people make.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sticking with my statement. We are better off spending time working on our game in more concrete ways (as noted above) than we are spending time thinking about how to manipulate people with bet-timing systems. It just seems inconsequential, IMO, whereas how you play difficult hands like TT and AQ in the early stages (for example) is the kind of issue you should be looking at in detail.

[UMTerp]

I got absolutely berated the other night for "slowrolling" my AA. I was ITM at like six or seven tables at the time.

IMO, it's best to just ignore the "timing" tells - there are too many factors that could cause a delay, and I think it's pretty easy to outthink yourself.

One that can be exploited (and one that I'm guilty of on occasion too) is if a multitabler has their check/fold button pressed on their BB. I usually only use this button on the first or second level myself, but some people use it throughout the tourney. It's good to note these players because you can min-raise steal their blinds if you have decent position on them.

[Jbrochu]

Based on my observations, a very fast all-in is more likely to be a bluff, and a long pause followed by a call or raise is more likely to be the nuts.

I don't think these tells are completely reliable but they can help with a close decision.

The other obvious "timing" tell is the pre-selected "check or fold" from the BB. Be careful though, I noticed a player trap using that move.

the people that berated you need to learn what "slowroll" means. it is not possible to do online. slowroll is when the hand is already over and you wait for everyone to turn there cards up and you take your time to turn yours up when you know that you already have the nuts. sort of giving someone else the impression that they have the best hand because no one else has spoken up, then all of a sudden you turn yours up and take the pot. that is why it is considered bad etiquette. the software online immediately determines the winner when all betting is done and a slowroll is not possible.

[Hellmouth]

One limit holdem tell is the very quick three bet. I have noticed that some people will lock in the Raise Any with AA-QQ and AK. If you see someone raise and then immediately after them a reraise with absolutly no lag, expect a monster.

This may not help too many of you though since I guess everyone here plays NL tourneys only.

Greg

[UMTerp]

You're correct of course, though I guess it appeared that I "slowrolled" him by taking an inordinate amount of time to call his all-in with AA preflop. I guess that's about the online equivalent to slowrolling.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, I agree completely. I'm not advocating reading into other people's betting times, I'm just saying that you can sometimes use your own betting time to manipulate other people's (i.e. mostly bad players) decisions.

I'm sure this is nothing new and was just wondering what sort of similar plays that other people make.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sticking with my statement. We are better off spending time working on our game in more concrete ways (as noted above) than we are spending time thinking about how to manipulate people with bet-timing systems. It just seems inconsequential, IMO, whereas how you play difficult hands like TT and AQ in the early stages (for example) is the kind of issue you should be looking at in detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is referenced on a semi-regular basis in the mid-high no-limit forum, arguably the most skilled forum on the site, so I believe it has value worth trying to capitalize on.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
The issue is referenced on a semi-regular basis in the mid-high no-limit forum, arguably the most skilled forum on the site, so I believe it has value worth trying to capitalize on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair comment. I admit to having no knowledge and therefore no opinions about those posts. I still stick to my guns in this case. I think that the psychology of low-limit SNG players is such that they are much more easily manipulated with bet sizes and bubble pushing and that there are better things to spend time on then worrying about the timing issue. Perhaps OP should go review those posts if he gets a chance.

how can you trap using the check/fold button? do you mean that he used the check/call button?

[BAK]

I have seen people responding to HHs in this (or the MTT) forum saying that if someone has used the "Bet Pot" button on PP, then fold because it is obviously a monster. Since you can only check this button well before the action gets to you (it is not one of the options you have when it is your turn to act), if you check it you are basically saying you don't care who calls or raises, you are betting the pot size whatever it may be when it gets to you. Seems like this might be an exploitable, if dangerous, way to bluff as if you had a monster hand.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
how can you trap using the check/fold button? do you mean that he used the check/call button?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I assumed he trapped by clicking the "check/fold" button (trying to represent that he had nothing in the BB when he really had a big hand) but I guess that could backfire if he was raised.

I guess he really must have selected the "check/call any" button trying to represent that he had selected the "check/fold" button.

[nuclear500]

Buyin level matters considerably in how you view the timing of bets.

At lower buyins one can somewhat safely assume that what appears to be an automatic bet or check/call of a non-minimum bet is one made because of strength of draw or strength of hand.

That being said, you can utilize this "tell" to your advantage in reverse. By betting strong and fast with trash, you are likely to be viewed as a weakish player who is overplaying his big hand and "losing" value. It of course helps to have had this action followed by a showdown with a strong hand previously at the table.


PS - the above "strategy" probably only works at the $5.50 and $11's...