A Hand from the 2+2 Table that I don't think I played very well

[MrWookie47]

This might be interesting. I just sat down, but you know the usual suspects.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP (Sightless) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB (TheMainEvent) caps</font>, Hero calls, MP (Sightless) calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">TheMainEvent bets</font>.

What's the plan, guys?

[benkath1]

check raise flop and lead turn.

Edit: OK, that's impossible. I'd call the flop and raise the turn.

[irishpint]

is it a serious table or LAGfest? also, which site? i need more accounts.

[MrWookie47]

Party, very serious. Check bottomset's post.

Edit: Although JaxUp is being ferocious lag, but a thinking one.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
is it a serious table or LAGfest? also, which site? i need more accounts.

[/ QUOTE ]

very serious. party...see 2+2 game thread for details

[LoaferGee12]

If this is a serious table, I really think your only option here is to play WA/WB and just call-down. If they really get in a war, I may be able to pitch it on the turn.

[xLukex]

Just call down? Wuss.

Raise to protect your hand. If you get 3-bet, then you can call down unless you improve.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
Just call down? Wuss.

Raise to protect your hand. If you get 3-bet, then you can call down unless you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

To protect from what? Give me a hand-range of these guys and tell me what I should be raising to protect from here.

[MrWookie47]

Am I really calling down if I get 3bet?

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I really calling down if I get 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, which is another reason I hate raising.

[MrWookie47]

Well, he're the real question. What is Sightless's range of hands? Of those hands, what hands will he raise/call/fold if I call? What ones will he raise/call/fold if I raise?

[LoaferGee12]

88-KK all are folding if you raise. They may or may not call-down if you just call. I think there's a good chance TT-KK will call this down if you just call (which is obviously great to help pad the pot for you). Also, these hands are never raising.
AT may fold to a raise (obviously bad for us), but AQ and AK definitely won't.
Thus, again, I think raising here sucks.

I'm grunching this one, but I feel the pot's too big to fold, so we call this and see if the turn brings us closer to our BD flush or two pair. I'll be interested to see the rest of the posts.

Given the preflop action and this ragged board, what exactly are you protecting against?

[pistol78]

[ QUOTE ]
This might be interesting. I just sat down, but you know the usual suspects.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP (Sightless) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB (TheMainEvent) caps</font>, Hero calls, MP (Sightless) calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">TheMainEvent bets</font>.

What's the plan, guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really dont like calling this flop. If it is a serious table and they are not lagging it up. I fear for you. Another problem I see with calling is that Mp might raise it. heads up I would be more inclined to call down but not here.

Let's move the discussion toward Wook's question of hand ranges....the way I see it, MP 3-bets with AA thru TT, AKs or AKo. Depending on his aggressiveness and his respect of your raises, maybe AQs?

To me BB's cap has got to signal AA, KK, AKs, maybe QQ.

Now I'll go think about the ramifications of that while you guys agree/disagree with my range of hands.

[MrWookie47]

Your range is too tight, methinks. This is a serious table, but everyone is playing very aggressively.

I see your reasoning here, but if our aces are good it would be an awful mistake to give up this good-sized pot.

So our pair is possibly good, and the BD flush draw adds value. I really want to see the turn card.

By staying in for the one bet, we get to gain some valuable info. Say MP raises and BB 3-bets....we can then safely fold. And if we're assuming good players here, MP has to almost certainly raise or fold, and I would look to see BB's reaction.

[Reqtech]

Assuming everyone is playing seriously, you have to assign premium hands to BB capping out of position. AA-JJ &amp; AK.

With that flop and his lead out, I don't think that you can narrow that down quite yet.

Raise to protect your hand on the flop. If raised, call and fold the turn UI.

This idea of protecting our hand isn't making sense to me in this situation. Raising for information on the cheaper street, maybe, but I don't see any scary drawouts that we need to protect against....maybe someone could enlighten me.

[pistol78]

Im gonna have to agree. An underpair has 2 outs and a hand we dominate has 3.

[TheMainEvent]

Fold PF u jerk

[MrWookie47]

I went ahead and raised, and it's probably wrong. What I was thinking at the time is that Sightless might raise behind me with KK and put me in a terrible spot. However, I knew right well that Sightless was playing nittier than your average bear at this table (which was still fairly laggy), and he'd be pretty stupid to raise a pf-capper and a caller on an A high flop with KK. I should have known better than to raise.

The turn on this hand is pretty interesting, IMO, as well. I'll just show you what I did, and you can discuss what I was thinking and how meritorious that is.


Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">TheMainEvent bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Sightless folds, TheMainEvent calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
TheMainEvent checks, Hero checks.

Edit: FWIW, I think Sightless's range in this is roughly 88+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs+. The game was slightly loose and very aggressive. I'm not sure if it was more common to have doubly raised pots or singly raise pots. Virtually every pot was raised, and virtually every pot was contested. TME's range is going to be more like TT+, AK, AQs, although it might be a bit tighter than that (no TT, no AQs).

If we're not folding, this is how I see it:

Just calling will allow MP to raise with a larger range of hands. I can see him testing BB with his KK, QQ, AQ-AJ, or even less.

However, if we raise here, we can freeze up any tricky stuff from MP and face him with two bets, against the original preflop raiser and the capper. He certainly could only reraise a monster in this instance. If he did I think we fold.

For BB to cap and lead out the flop takes a certain confidence, so our raise not only forces MP to expose his strength, but tests BB as well, while it's still cheap to do so. Without a big ace I don't see how he can 3-bet us given the action.

Overall, I think we can't fold if we might have the best hand here, and our only way of gaining insight to that is to raise for information. Any thoughts?

[Kumubou]

Your thinking seems pretty clear to me -- get this hand to showdown. It really comes down to how often they will checkraise you as a semi-bluff there. No idea, but I think a value bet here would be thin at best, given that you are either outkicked or you have his big pair smoked.

What I think is going to be interesting is if it is checked to you on the river. Do you value bet?

As for the flop, am I the only one who calls with the intention of reevaluating based on impending action? If MP calls, I'm probably blasting any turn card. If it goes raise and 3-bet, it looks like a fairly easy fold. If he raises and the BB calls, you are probably (but not certainly) behind but drawing live.

-K

Wook I'm a bit confused here....for starters, which play are you claiming is better than raising, call or fold? To me it seems MP's fold and BB's freezing up is justification for your raise.

Secondly, once BB only calls you and checks the turn, my instinct says to bet there, yet you check. Can you go into your reasoning a bit on this? Thanks

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
Wook I'm a bit confused here....for starters, which play are you claiming is better than raising, call or fold? To me it seems MP's fold and BB's freezing up is justification for your raise.

Secondly, once BB only calls you and checks the turn, my instinct says to bet there, yet you check. Can you go into your reasoning a bit on this? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

His turn check was good. If he bet he could expect a fold or a c/r, and a c/r is very bad for him here.

[bottomset]

I just call the flop here, I don't really see KK or QQ raising behind you

I like the turn check behind given how you played it

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
I just call the flop here, I don't really see KK or QQ raising behind you

I like the turn check behind given how you played it

[/ QUOTE ]

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just call the flop here, I don't really see KK or QQ raising behind you

I like the turn check behind given how you played it

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I just call the flop here, I don't really see KK or QQ raising behind you

I like the turn check behind given how you played it

[/ QUOTE ]

[TomBrooks]

FLOP: One way: just call it down and raise on the river maybe. If you raise the flop, anyone without a good ace folds, so let him do the betting for you with his KK. If he has AK or AQ, you lose the least.

TURN: Bet. What's with the checkthrough?

[cold_cash]

I'm late to the game but I like just calling the flop.

Since you guys are at least trying and not simply clicking the 'raise' button I don't think the guy behind is going to get frisky with a hand you're beating.

Also, I've played in quite a few of these games and his 3-bet before the flop could be a lot of hands, most of which you don't mind him calling with. (Although I think he's folding a huge percentage of the time, and he's likely very right to do so.)

I like the turn. It's going to be tough for him to call with a worse hand, and you also encourage him to flail on the river whild not giving him the chance bluff you off the best hand.

(Although, while your turn check might induce a bluff, I'm guessing if he bets the river you're beaten, but nowhere near often enough to fold.)

[Duerig]

I think I'd call the flop and raise any non-diamond turn, folding to a 3-bet. My river plan would depend on who is still in the hand.

Is it me, but I'd have fold pré-flop here.
First, with A-Js UTG, i like to call, not raise. After, you are reraised and then it's capped to you. I don't think you have the best hand right now, and you clearly not have the position, this is why i fold here.

But you have call, and SB bet on the flop. I'm sur he has a better Ace, the SB won't bet with 3 players behind him with K-K. And we won't capped préflop with A-10, so again, you have to fold.

[VoraciousReader]

I like the turn check behind. Getting check-raised here would really stink. (Doesn't help matters that we're now behind KK either.) Plus, I think if you're ahead, there's an excellent chance your turn bet isn't getting called. So he folds if we're ahead, and he could c/r us if we're behind. If you check, he will most likely bet the river for you.

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]
This might be interesting. I just sat down, but you know the usual suspects.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP (Sightless) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB (TheMainEvent) caps</font>, Hero calls, MP (Sightless) calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">TheMainEvent bets</font>.

What's the plan, guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call the flop. If raised, call the raise and fold the turn unimproved (no J, no flush draw - I didn't get if you have BDFD or not). Don't raise if an A falls.

(I don't know any of the the players invloved so this is just a guess based on the fact that they are 2+2's)
Sightless has 77-AA Aks-AJs, KQs
TheMainEvent has a high PP or AK

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]


Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">TheMainEvent bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Sightless folds, TheMainEvent calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
TheMainEvent checks, Hero checks.

Edit: FWIW, I think Sightless's range in this is roughly 88+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs+. The game was slightly loose and very aggressive. I'm not sure if it was more common to have doubly raised pots or singly raise pots. Virtually every pot was raised, and virtually every pot was contested. TME's range is going to be more like TT+, AK, AQs, although it might be a bit tighter than that (no TT, no AQs).

[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see I am answering this blind...

I love the check. I call every river bet and raise an ace. Check behind on a Q or K.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it me, but I'd have fold pré-flop here.
First, with A-Js UTG, i like to call, not raise. After, you are reraised and then it's capped to you. I don't think you have the best hand right now, and you clearly not have the position, this is why i fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi John - Welcome to the forums!

Two things: 1) You should be raising this from UTG at full ring 0.5/1, must less in UTG 6-handed. (That's like MP2 in a full game - limping first-in with a pretty hand like AJ would be a big no-no.) And 2) This is a 2+2 game. They're very aggressive. We definitely can call after it's capped behind us. I might even call in a regular game, depending on the opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
But you have call, and SB bet on the flop. I'm sur he has a better Ace, the SB won't bet with 3 players behind him with K-K. And we won't capped préflop with A-10, so again, you have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero's raise and MP's 3-bet aren't necessarily an A. Again, this is an aggressive game. SB is betting here out of position and will re-evaluate after the action.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
I call every river bet and raise an ace. Check behind on a Q or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given my range, how is an second A going to give him the winning hand if he didn't have it already?

[Pedigree]

[ QUOTE ]

But you have call, and SB bet on the flop. I'm sur he has a better Ace, the SB won't bet with 3 players behind him with K-K. And we won't capped préflop with A-10, so again, you have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a sure thing he has a better ace and even if he does Hero has 4.5 outs (3 jacks and a BDFD) so he can peel and see the turn.

On the turn, a check is very good. If you bet, he's folding an inferior hand. I don't think he'd fold AQ. If you bet and are raised it sucks. Maybe you can snap off a bluff if he bests the river. If he checks the river, just check behind. It's not worth a value bet.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
TheMainEvent checks, Hero checks.



[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning for checking the turn here? Free card? Afraid that you'll be check raised?

I disagree with the turn check. By checking the turn, you have invited TME to bet the river. Bet the turn, hope for him to fold, if not take the free showdown. If you get checkraised, fold.

All three situations involve putting one bet at risk, but by betting the turn gives you the chance to solidly define hands. A turn checkraise as a bluff would seem unlikely given the pf capping and the ace on the flop.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
TheMainEvent checks, Hero checks.



[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning for checking the turn here? Free card? Afraid that you'll be check raised?

I disagree with the turn check. By checking the turn, you have invited TME to bet the river. Bet the turn, hope for him to fold, if not take the free showdown. If you get checkraised, fold.

All three situations involve putting one bet at risk, but by betting the turn gives you the chance to solidly define hands. A turn checkraise as a bluff would seem unlikely given the pf capping and the ace on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if we bet the turn and he folds, what are the chances that we were going to lose a showdown? He's not laying down AA, KK, AK, AQ, etc. He very probably will lay down QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, etc.

I agree, a check behind invites him to bet the river. And that's a good thing, because he will likely bet the river with lots of hands that we beat but that he would have folded to a turn bet.

Either path costs us a bet. But if we put that bet in on the turn, we can't win any more money! If we put that bet in on the river, we will likely extract 1 more BB when we ARE winning. Sure, if we bet and he raises or we bet and he folds, we've "defined" his hand. But I don't see the value in defining his hand, because we've already spent the bet, and chances are, we can't profit from our information.

I'd rather SEE his hand than DEFINE it.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]


But if we bet the turn and he folds, what are the chances that we were going to lose a showdown? He's not laying down AA, KK, AK, AQ, etc. He very probably will lay down QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, etc.



[/ QUOTE ]

If that is what he would fold, then it would be absolutely be foolish to give him a free card to make his hand on the river.

[MrWookie47]

Thanks for all the responses, guys. I definitely think I should have called. If Sightless is really a thinking player, he couldn't raise me there with KK or QQ. It's one of Sklansky's "Painted Forehead Problems."

I am happy with my turn check. I gave a free card because any hand I'm ahead of has at most 2 outs. A free card is unlikely to hurt me, and any hand I'm beating is folding to a turn bet. There's an off chance he'll bet the river, though, so I think that the chance that I induce a bluff makes up for giving the free card.

In the end, he checked to me on a river brick. I bet, and he folded.

[Sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
If Sightless is really a thinking player

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a very big If... anyways I folded AT of hearts on the flop ):

[MrWookie47]

I think that's a very good fold. I also hope you wouldn't be raising that on the flop had I called.

[Sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's a very good fold. I also hope you wouldn't be raising that on the flop had I called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, as soon as TheMainEvent capped preflop i knew i was way behind. I was going to call the single flop bet, and hope for another heart on the turn or maybe a ten.

[Pedigree]

[ QUOTE ]

I am happy with my turn check. I gave a free card because any hand I'm ahead of has at most 2 outs. A free card is unlikely to hurt me, and any hand I'm beating is folding to a turn bet. There's an off chance he'll bet the river, though, so I think that the chance that I induce a bluff makes up for giving the free card.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, agree 100%

[Reqtech]

I see what you're saying Wook, but since the pot is already big, I want to win it on the turn (by betting).

Now that I've thought about it some more, what would TME donk the river with as a bluff if you check through? There weren't any realistic draws on the flop for you to take a free card with to complete, so he would have to put you on some ace.

I don't know if this is a huge diffence in EV between us, but I'm a stubborn mofo /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MrWookie47]

If I bet and he folds a 2 outer, I gain his equity in the pot, which is about 4%. That's about 1/3 of a BB. Huh. I actually don't think he'll bet the river 1/3 of the time with a hand I beat. I change my vote now that I've worked out the numbers. The pot is big enough that I'd rather win it now. In a smaller pot, though, the fraction of a BB I'd gain from the chance of his betting will be larger than what I forfeit by checking this turn. I guess the only other concern would be getting bluffed off the best hand by a turn c/r, but I don't think any rational player could c/r that turn with a hand I beat. Betting now is better. Thanks for pestering me on that, Reqtech.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet and he folds a 2 outer, I gain his equity in the pot, which is about 4%. That's about 1/3 of a BB. Huh. I actually don't think he'll bet the river 1/3 of the time with a hand I beat. I change my vote now that I've worked out the numbers. The pot is big enough that I'd rather win it now. In a smaller pot, though, the fraction of a BB I'd gain from the chance of his betting will be larger than what I forfeit by checking this turn. I guess the only other concern would be getting bluffed off the best hand by a turn c/r, but I don't think any rational player could c/r that turn with a hand I beat. Betting now is better. Thanks for pestering me on that, Reqtech.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to print this out and put it on my refridgerator.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the only other concern would be getting bluffed off the best hand by a turn c/r, but I don't think any rational player could c/r that turn with a hand I beat. Betting now is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually considered a c/r after I saw the turn just because it was a good card to represent a set or AK and c/r bluffing the turn seems like a hip thing to do in a 2+2 game. But I decided not to and you would have foiled my plan anyways. In a normal game I would be check-folding without much thought here.

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call every river bet and raise an ace. Check behind on a Q or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given my range, how is an second A going to give him the winning hand if he didn't have it already?

[/ QUOTE ]

A second A will make him a big favorite against your range (66% if my calculation are right. I put you on AA-QQ, AK).

Without the A he is probably behind (even though your turn check is suspicious).

[ErrantNight]

it's a 2+2 table?

cap every street.

It's best if you hit a runner runner flush or boat.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the only other concern would be getting bluffed off the best hand by a turn c/r, but I don't think any rational player could c/r that turn with a hand I beat. Betting now is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually considered a c/r after I saw the turn just because it was a good card to represent a set or AK and c/r bluffing the turn seems like a hip thing to do in a 2+2 game. But I decided not to and you would have foiled my plan anyways. In a normal game I would be check-folding without much thought here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had QQ?

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call every river bet and raise an ace. Check behind on a Q or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given my range, how is an second A going to give him the winning hand if he didn't have it already?

[/ QUOTE ]

A second A will make him a big favorite against your range (66% if my calculation are right. I put you on AA-QQ, AK).

Without the A he is probably behind (even though your turn check is suspicious).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is ahead more often than he is behind but that is not an argument for a river raise. If he raises he either doesn't get paid off or gets 3-bet by my boat.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the only other concern would be getting bluffed off the best hand by a turn c/r, but I don't think any rational player could c/r that turn with a hand I beat. Betting now is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually considered a c/r after I saw the turn just because it was a good card to represent a set or AK and c/r bluffing the turn seems like a hip thing to do in a 2+2 game. But I decided not to and you would have foiled my plan anyways. In a normal game I would be check-folding without much thought here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

yessir

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]
[
Yes, he is ahead more often than he is behind but that is not an argument for a river raise. If he raises he either doesn't get paid off or gets 3-bet by my boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken.