Turn c/r into possible steal

[obsidian]

Been wondering about bluffing on boards like these. It would undoubtedly be better if I had a /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I would also need to make a river bet if he calls too which makes it more expensive. Villain in this case is something 73/18/1.4. However, despite that he doesn't steal a whole lot.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[gehrig]

the pot's kind of small and a 73/18/1.4 isn't folding anything at all

[mcvalenc]

Most 73/18's go to showdown too much and the pot's just so tiny... I'd only try this against someone who can fold a good amount, like a TAG with around a 35 wtSD%.

just fold the turn.

[TStoneMBD]

these are good boards to be checkraising the flop on if you want to make a move. you have to call a 1SB bet anyway so you are investing another bet with the hope of taking it down. he is unlikely to fold to your flop checkraise so youre forced to bet the turn. fortunately it would probably be correct or close to correct to checkcall a turn with a gutshot plus overs so for the investment of 1SB plus the risk of facing a raise you are generating folding equity.

again checkraising these boards is good shorthanded poker but this guy is very loose and very aggressive for his vpip which generally means hes not going nowhere. its difficult to give you a "do this its better than this" in this situation because plays like this really come down to feel at the table although the concept behind checkraising has strategic merit but it also has downside.

btw i hate the turn checkraise i would just checkfold with the 3rd heart out there. hes going to have a heart almost half the time and hell have a pair alot of other times and sometimes he wont even fold ace high without a heart. youre investing too much money to win not enough and its just doodypoo.

[Lmn55d]

I Really think checkraising the flop against this opponent would be spewing. You're gonna get 3bet a ton of times and are rarely going to get him to fold ever. Plus your overcard outs are tainted and subject to redraws. Calling also allows you to checkraise the turn if you hit against an opponent who will follow up very often.

[TStoneMBD]

i feel like the flop checkraise has a larger success rate against this type of opponent then a turn checkraise even though that sounds counter intuitive. from my experience it seems that they never fold to turn checkraise bluffs even with modest holdings such as Ax but often fold to flop checkraises + turn bets. maybe its just a fair reaction to how i play because i rarely ever checkcall on these boards with a pair, so for me to checkraise on the turn means that i hit the turn or that im bluffing so they call me down. i dont know if thats how these opponents react to other players but thats how they seem to react to me at least.

[Lmn55d]

Well I think both are spewing against this player. As for which is a better risk/reward ratio, I still think the turn raise is because with a flop raise you're gonna have to fire on the river a lot because this guy is rarely folding overs before then. A turn raise might make him think he is drawing pretty slim. Everyone and their brother checkraises the flop so I don't think that is gonna mean much to this bozo

EDIT: I think you might have misread my post. I meant checkraise the turn IF you hit.

[7ontheline]

But Tstone is right about this guy almost never folding the turn either since he'll have a heart or a pair or something much of the time. You're probably better off not trying to make moves against a LAG like this and pounding him when you've got a hand. In any case, it's pretty read-dependent as to which move this particular LAG folds to IMO. Some guys won't fold once they hit the turn, while some will be scared of your turn c/r.

[obsidian]

Thanks for the response. For the results orientated the villain folded to the turn raise. I couldn't help but think the move was bad though. I like the analysis and though about c/r'ing the flop. However, with these low of cards and all the possible draws I would also c/r with I figured I would almost never fold out an A, so instead in the heat of the moment I opted for a turn c/r.

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
I Really think checkraising the flop against this opponent would be spewing. You're gonna get 3bet a ton of times and are rarely going to get him to fold ever. Plus your overcard outs are tainted and subject to redraws. Calling also allows you to checkraise the turn if you hit against an opponent who will follow up very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like the thoughts from this post and I am sure your thinking is spot on, my initial reaction and I know I probably do this 80% of the time was to follow the CR the flop line after SB folds, but I can see now that your line is infinitely better against this button. Great post Lmn55d, your posting has been top notch lately (maybe in the past also I dunno).

[Lmn55d]

yea I meant checkraise turn only if you hit. My initial post was a little unclear.

[TStoneMBD]

You may have won the battle this time, but we will meet again.

[7ontheline]

I like your line now. My mistake.