Confused with QQ

This hand is from a .25-.50 game, so I don't expect the best play at this table. That said, do I give villain credit for a set/AA/KK in this spot? I'm still a relative newbie to limit, so I may have misplayed this somewhere. Comments appreciated.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (18.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (15.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB

[ArturiusX]

I think we'll need to know the situation before we can answer.

Ninja edit by you! Convert that hand please.

[MrWookie47]

I always give my opponents credit for a set before the blinds even put their money on the table.

Edit: Now edit your post for a second time and use the hand converter. Posting screen names is a no-no.

Edit2: Now edit your post a third time and use the 2+2 format instead of FTR format when you convert.

Working on it- you guys are fast &gt;&lt;

EDIT: That has to be the MOST I have ever messed up in posting a hand. Forget to add the HH, then forget to convert, then convert the wrong way. Sorry for you 2 who were eagerly awaiting ripping apart my play /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[radek2166]

How bout raing the flop. See what he does. He 3 bets you what is you course of action? Hard to fold it. Might be AK Might be AQ. could be a set.

One of the most difficult things for me is laying down an over pair to a 3 bet.

That being said I would prefer some indication where I am in this hand at sometime VS. Just calling the whole way.

[ErrantNight]

not raising this flop kills a kitten.

[midwestkc]

*grunch*

Raise the flop and the turn, based on what villain does here, you may want to call down on the river.

Id put in a raise on the flop. Protect your hand. Beautiful pot that is overflowing. I dont see why you give villain such respect. If I had AA-QQ I would 3bet you.

[NateDog]

Did you lose track of the raise button on your monitor once the flop came?

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
not raising this flop kills a kitten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto for the turn and river.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
not raising this flop kills a kitten.

[/ QUOTE ]
Waiting for turn to protect = no good?

[MrWookie47]

Alright. The pot is pretty big. I can see waiting to the turn to raise for better protection. However, he'd better raise the turn.

[ErrantNight]

fair enough. if you want to wait to raise a non-A non-K turn i'll buy that. but not raising the turn after calling on the flop kills a CUTE kitten.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
do I give villain credit for a set/AA/KK in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL. No.

[ QUOTE ]

Waiting for turn to protect = g0ot

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[BoogerFace]

*grunch*

I'd raise the flop to see where we are. Villan could also have JJ TT 99 and AK or could be a total donk who likes to cap preflop with anything s00ted.

[Preytar]

Grunching:

Raise the flop to isolate CO. We do not want to give a cheap 4th street with a draw heavy board.

The CO is doing our work for us by betting and giving us a chance to get rid of UTG &amp; UTG+1. Raise here, but expect the guy who is backing into a 4 flush to call.

Call the river as the pot is large.

You probably trapped yourself into getting beaten by a flush or straight because you were worried about raising into the CO's set or bigger pocket pair. I do the same time from time to time, but the best cure for me has been to raise the flop and river in these situations.

Good luck.

Brian

[Nikademus]

*grunch*

Not raising this flop keeps you in the dark about what your opponents may have. If you get re-raised, at least then you can start figuring out what you are up against.

No idea what CO has, but looks like UTG had AKs/AQs

[A_K]

Grunch. You haven't given us much to work with -- any reads or stats on villan? Assuming the "typical" player at .25/.5 I'd raise the flop, since there is a decent chance that this is unimproved AK. If he 3-bets, I'd probably call down and expect to lose. Anybody find a fold here if villan 3-bets the flop?

:grunch:

I would have raised the flop. The play would be be much different afterwards.

You should have raised one of those streets to eliminate suck-outs and to start defining ppl's hands.

[JojoDiego]

I'm more concerned with the preflop capper (UTG) than the CO. UTG limped/capped, which suggests either 1) he's a wild man who said, "screw it, let's build a big pot" when it came back to him, or 2) he limped a monster (A-A, K-K, A-K) in order to get action. I think #2 is more likely.

So, you either must raise that flop for value, or wait for the turn, where you must raise for value/protection. I'm not sure which has more +EV.

CO could be betting out here with a lot of stuff you beat: A-9/5/7s, J-J, 10-10, etc. Depends on the player, but you gotta pop him in most cases.

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is from a .25-.50 game, so I don't expect the best play at this table. That said, do I give villain credit for a set/AA/KK in this spot? I'm still a relative newbie to limit, so I may have misplayed this somewhere. Comments appreciated.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (18.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (15.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm most definitely raising this flop.

[HouseCalls]

*grunch*
Preflop - ok
Flop - Raise to face callers with two bets (hopefully elminate players with a weak king, ace, or draw)
The same is true on the turn and river.

grunch

raise the flop for value because it is likely that you have the best hand,
CO could have big cards or a lower pocket pair

*Grunch*

My fisrt post! exiting stuff. Ok, here we go.....

I think I would raise this on the flop to gain a little cheap info. If I meet a re-raise then I am just calling it down.

If he just calls then on the turn/river I would raise if he bets or bet if he checks. But if he comes back at me then back to call down mode.

Hi, my first post. Hopefully not too stupid /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Preflop: Fine.
Flop: You have an overpair which may or may not be the best hand at this point. An A or K are overcards. various straight draws are also likely on this board, a 6 or an 8 puts 3 to a straight on the board.

The pot is &gt;18 sb's so you would dearly like to protect the pot. If you raise the flop you still only face the remaining 2 players with odds of 1 in 21 or so. This means anyone with as little as 2 outs to beat you has the odds to call. So a raise here doesn't protect your hand. Best wait for the turn to do this.

Can you raise for value? Is your pot equity much higher than 25%? I'm not sure. An A,K will drop by the river about 34% of the time, a 6 or 8 another 34% of the time (although this is not as dire). You also don't definately have the best hand now.

This could marginally be one of those times Miller talks about where your pot equity is likely to increase significantly if a safe card falls on the turn. And a double size turn bet is a better value raise if a safe card comes.

More importantly raising the flop makes it significantly more difficult to protect your hand on the turn for two reasons.
1. The CO is more likely to check it round to you so you can't raise.
2. When you (hopefully) raise the turn the pot has another 2 bb's in giving callers improved odds.

So I think I agree with the call on the flop!

Turn: Must raise to protect. Calling here is a disaster.

River: River play confuses me, but I would call or raise.

Any thoughts on the logic here?

[ArturiusX]

Never ever ever ever raise the flop for information.

Information from flop raises is faulty and useless.

[chadplusplus]

&lt;Grunch (and the answer may already be here, but...)&gt;

Definitely raise on the flop. Agreed, his preflop cap makes me nervous, but it could be AK or JJ or maybe even AQ.

The tough decision comes if he three bets us. Depending upon the player, I either go ahead and cap here, then go into call down mode if he comes firing out on the turn. (But, I also believe this situation is one in which I am very bad.) -or- just fold to his 3-bet and believe that he has a bigger pocket pair. Although, I'd have a real problem folding queens on this board.

&lt;/grunch&gt;

at the flop:

at this level UTG is probably wild rather than having limped a monster, but you didn't post any reads. i'm primarily concerned about CO who again depending on reads might have anything in the pocket from an 88+ pair to broadway cards and is autobetting his pfr given UTG's check.

normally i raise for info here, but given i think UTG is wild and likely to 3-bet my raise, i call to see if UTG raises and CO 3-bets. (a little extra info perhaps).


turn: draw heavy board. raise to protect.

river: call

[Fryguy]

exactly 3 reasonable hands beat us. AA, KK, 99. There's lots of stuff we are beating, AK, AQ, AJs (if they are loose), JJ, TT.

You need to raise SOMEWHERE postflop. Some argue for the turn, I kinda like the flop. These people aren't going anywhere, might as well get money into the pot and hope. There's nothing really worth protecting from.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
&lt;Grunch (and the answer may already be here, but...)&gt;

Agreed, his preflop cap makes me nervous&lt;/grunch&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]
How did you grunch, Then agree with a previous poster? /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Raise the turn, Flop raise is ok but anyone with a gutshot has pot odds to call. Also i think we're ahead and treat UTG "donk cap" as a "Gee its goign to be capped, So i'll do it" action.

POKhER.

[chadplusplus]

[ QUOTE ]
How did you grunch, Then agree with a previous poster? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OP: [ QUOTE ]
That said, do I give villain credit for a set/AA/KK in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm so confused. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif This is what I get for responding to posts while multitabling 1/2 6-max. I GOTTA quit doing that!

Edit: BUT, after reading the responses today while at work, I think I'm also leaning towards raising the turn. The "waiting for the turn raise" is something I always forget about and something I really need to work on adding to my game.

[MN_Mime]

*grunch*

Preflop, you're about a coin flip if you could get it headsup against a reasonable PFR/cap. About the same on the flop.

However, you've got 2 cold-callers almost certainly contributing chips here. Against a reason PFR and 2 random hands you're over 40% equity. If would be hard to manufacture non random hands that can call the pre-flop cap AND be ahead of you on the flop.

---

That said, I'm raising the flop. The bettor could be legit or a maniac and either one helps protect your hand here. I'm inclined to think a flop cap serves no purpose.

I'm also raising the turn but this might be a leak. The turn helped nobody except a BDFD or a random underpair, so this raise is for value. At this point, a thinking apponent has to consider the possibility that you have an overpair or a set of 9s. If he still doesn't slow down, I think you're beat but are best to call down.

When the river brings the flush, I think you call and expect to lose to one of your cold-callers.

[Buckmulligan]

I would raise the flop. Not to say that it's a good idea to fold on the end, but if CO is solid and rational, we are only ahead of JJ here.

What do all of the *Grunches* mean? (Sorry, I'm new to limit, as my OP said)

ALl of you are advocating raising the flop, which I can see now, then what happens if I get Reraised? Do I call down, cap, or fold? I'm so bad at thinking like the players at .25/.50, this guy could have unimproved AK, AA/KK/Set, or even TPGK. I guess the raise gives me more information.

Anyway, thanks for helping me stop being a donkey at limit.