checkraise

[TStoneMBD]

villain in this hand is a winning player but i have a big edge over him because hes way too passive and doesnt extract value out of alot of hands. we have alot of history together and he knows me as a very aggressive player and he combats my aggression by calling down with too many hands against me and rarely ever getting out of line. he doesnt do free showdown plays so hes not 3betting my turn checkraise with a weaker hand. he probably thinks im overly aggressive since i find him overly passive. i can trust that after he bets the river that i cant win unless he had a heart draw and capped a weaker hand preflop. im not sure if my turn checkraise will fold a bigger ace high hand, but it might. i figure its better than checkcalling the turn and calling the river.

5 handed 25/50

hero is BB with A9o

button raises, hero 3bets, button caps, hero calls.

flop is 372

hero checks and calls

turn is a jack

hero checkraises button calls

river is a 3

hero checks and folds

[baronzeus]

tstone,

can you give me his username?

your line is OK, but if it is who i think it is, he's not folding a pair or AK-AQ ever on the turn.


i found out who he is. he 3bets me lightly preflop but he never caps lightly. i'd just c/f turn.

[Alobar]

Is this play called "the stone?" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

from your read, it sounds like he wont ever fold this turn with a pair, and if all he has is a bigger ace, hes likely got 2 overcards to call hoping to hit (combined with the fact he may just call down anyway thinking his hand is good vs. you).

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]

i found out who he is. he 3bets me lightly preflop but he never caps lightly. i'd just c/f turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is so why not check/fold flop? Is he ever giving up on turn? Our outs are way tainted.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i found out who he is. he 3bets me lightly preflop but he never caps lightly. i'd just c/f turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is so why not check/fold flop? Is he ever giving up on turn? Our outs are way tainted.

[/ QUOTE ]

If his capping range is 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AQo+, KQo, then on the flop we have 29% equity in a 8 SB pot, which is only 1.1 BB.

On the turn we have 22% equity in a 5 BB pot, which is not enough to contine.

Most cards that hit, we will only have a minor equity share like this. Even if the A hits, we only have 35% equity in a 5 BB pot, which, is slightly profitble, but doesn't happen nearly enough. If a 9 comes we have a good 60% equity, but again, this doesn't happen often enough.

I think it is safe to say that since we can't continue on most turns, a flop fold is good.

Given that you peeled the flop, I think a turn check fold is a must.

[TStoneMBD]

i think there are also times when the opponent just caps any 2 which is a good play especially against a guy like me who 3bets alot out of position and goes into a shell when capped. im not sure if this opponent is the type to do that but he might be since he definitely views me as overaggressive.

i am thinking that the turn might just be a checkfold situation but i just feel like i want to take this hand to showdown for some reason even tho im not sure if its right. (i consider checkraising and folding to a river bet taking it to showdown).

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
i think there are also times when the opponent just caps any 2 which is a good play especially against a guy like me who 3bets alot out of position and goes into a shell when capped. im not sure if this opponent is the type to do that but he might be since he definitely views me as overaggressive.

i am thinking that the turn might just be a checkfold situation but i just feel like i want to take this hand to showdown for some reason even tho im not sure if its right. (i consider checkraising and folding to a river bet taking it to showdown).

[/ QUOTE ]

If he might cap with some other random holdings, that definetly changes things.

As for your turn check raise... doesn't this seem like the wrong type of opponent to do this against? Both for the reasons that he is a bit too passive (likely to call down), and that he knows, or at least thinks, that you are over agressive (even more reason to call down).

[Danenania]

We don't get to realize our equity unless we see a showdown. Calling the flop because your equity is good enough doesn't make sense if you're just going to have to check/fold the turn 4/5 times.

Edit: I just realized that this is exactly what you said in your post. At first I just skimmed numbers and thought you were disagreeing with me :P. I'll leave up my point though just to reinforce.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
We don't get too realize our equity unless we see a showdown. Calling the flop because your equity is good enough doesn't make sense if you're just going to have to check/fold the turn 4/5 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never advocated a flop call.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is safe to say that since we can't continue on most turns, a flop fold is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

The equity I mentioned was just to give us an idea of where we were at. I know we only "own" the equity if we see showdown, but at least you can see what you are passing up by not spending 2.5 SB (actually, less then that because we have some equity of those bets too).

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
realize our equity

[/ QUOTE ]

omg i love this term im going to use it from now on. did you come up with this yourself?

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
We don't get to realize our equity unless we see a showdown. Calling the flop because your equity is good enough doesn't make sense if you're just going to have to check/fold the turn 4/5 times.

Edit: I just realized that this is exactly what you said in your post. At first I just skimmed numbers and thought you were disagreeing with me :P. I'll leave up my point though just to reinforce.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see why you thought I was disagreeing with you. At first I was /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Usually when I respond to peoples post with a bunch of numbers and equity and such, I am doing so in the attempts to show that they are wrong. Quite often enough though, I end up realizing that they were right, and use my numbers to show that they were right.

I think its great when you are trying to prove someone wrong, and in doing so you prove them right. You really learn something.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

i am thinking that the turn might just be a checkfold situation but i just feel like i want to take this hand to showdown for some reason even tho im not sure if its right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this opponent it sounds like if you do feel the need to see a showdown hes only betting the river if your hand is no good, so you could check/call the turn and check/fold the river UI.

[TStoneMBD]

if hes behind on the river hes betting but an arguement could be made that he would check down bigger aces so i save value that way.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
i think there are also times when the opponent just caps any 2 which is a good play especially against a guy like me who 3bets alot out of position and goes into a shell when capped. im not sure if this opponent is the type to do that but he might be since he definitely views me as overaggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey bro,

This type of thinking gets me into trouble against the type of player you described. While it is theoretically a good counterstrategy, it's rare to come across an opponent who realizes this AND acts accordingly. This is especially true given his mis-adjustment to call down liberally and not raise for free showdown/be more aggressive preflop.

Surf