Odds that you are drawing dead on the flop

Certainly there are many situations where you are drawing dead to the river. But what is the probability that you are drawing dead right after the flop?

Flopping quads against a hand who has no backdoor draws (higher quads, straight flush) comes to mind...but I can't think of that many others.

[Luzion]

You are going to have to give specific examples of a hand vs another hand if you want the probability of holding a dead hand on the flop.

There are a bunch of situations where you could be drawing dead that doesnt involve quads. Your opponent could flop a straight on a rainbow flop or a flush when you dont hit the flop with any two unsuited and/or connected cards or hold a pocket pair. There could be a possibility of splitting the pot if there is a chance of having the board become a higher straight then what he holds of course. Your opponent could also flop a full house when you hold unsuited cards that arent a pocket pair. Its also possible in that situation for the pot to be split by the river too.

[pzhon]

A much more common way to be drawing dead on the flop is to have no pair against a set when no straight is possible. You can also be drawing dead against a flopped flush when you have no pair.

If you have an overcard, you aren't drawing dead against trips since you can at least tie if the turn and river match your overcard. With no overcard, you are often drawing dead against trips. If you have a pair lower than the board's, you are drawing dead if your opponent's kicker is of your rank.

If your opponent has a pocket pair and flops a full house, you are not drawing dead since the board may make quads. You can be drawing dead with undercards when your opponent does not have a pocket pair but flops a full house.

Yeah, I was just asking the question because with all the poker I've seen on TV, I've seen several times where one person is drawing dead by the turn (earning the ESPN checkmark), but I don't think I've ever seen someone be dead on the flop (they always have at least 1 or 2 percent).

[AaronBrown]

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A much more common way to be drawing dead on the flop is to have no pair against a set when no straight is possible. You can also be drawing dead against a flopped flush when you have no pair.

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In the first case you are only dead if the set is higher than both your highest card and the other card(s) on the board. For example, if you hold A7 against K9 and the flop is KK8, you could win with aces on the turn and river. But if the flop is AA8, the other guy is drawing dead.

In the case of the flush, you can win if you hold one card of the flush suit higher than either of the other player's cards, and you could tie even with no cards of the flush suit. For example, you hold any two non-spades and the other player holds 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif on the flop, followed by 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Or he holds A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif and the flop comes 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, followed by 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[Luzion]

[ QUOTE ]
In the first case you are only dead if the set is higher than both your highest card and the other card(s) on the board. For example, if you hold A7 against K9 and the flop is KK8, you could win with aces on the turn and river. But if the flop is AA8, the other guy is drawing dead.

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That is not a set. When you hold K9 and the flop comes KKx, that is called holding trips. A set is made only by holding a pocket pair and the board gives you the third card that you need. Like holding 88 and the flop comes K82.

[danzasmack]

If your opponent flops a straight, are we counting a chop as not drawing dead?