QJs coordinated board - too passive or ok?

[HouseCalls]

First rotation - no reads

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

How aggressive should I have been here? It didn't feel like any hands that would beat me would be folding to a raise but it also felt pretty soft just calling along.
Hands that make you go "hmmmmmmm."

[Koss]

First off raise pre-flop. You can peel one on the flop, but I would fold the turn. You have 9 outs to improve but I'd probably give your hand around 6 because of the flush draw and the fact that you could be dominated or chop if you make the straight. The river is fine.

[car ramrod]

raise pf, fold the flop, fold the turn
the river is the only street that was played well.

*grunch*

The pot is small but I like just calling down until the third Q fell on the river and then I like the raise. I definitely think we are behind on the flop but with the draw to the nut str8 along with the pair of Q's I think it is worth calling.

i think you have to let this one go on the flop. you are up against 4 players and the board is very co-ordinated. Flush draws, straight draws, and two overcards. Your 10 outs (2Q, 4J, 4T) are most likely not clean...

You are getting 7:1, which means you have to find at least 7 clean outs (out of the 10) to justify the call

The pot is small, fold!

L

First off, I agree with folding the flop, given the tiny pot and dirty, dirty outs.

Having said that, why do we favour open-raising QJs from MP1? I consider QJs to be a fairly speculative hand, one with which I'd like to see the flop cheaply, and with more rather than fewer opponents. I suppose that its high card strength is okay, but do we win often enough with TP/MP/MK to justify the raise? Buying the button from MP1 is not too likely, especially in 0.10/0.20. What about JTs or QTs? Forgive me if I'm treading over familiar (or boring) ground, but I was surprised by this advice.

[car ramrod]

I don't know about .10/.20, but this is 7 handed. If there are already some limpers in the hand, then a limp is ok. But being the first one in, I open with QJs. It plays well multi way, so if everyone calls, no big deal, but if we can get a few folds, even better.

[POKhER]

I personally like to limp QJs in this situation, due to a few factors(Feel free to debate).

1, We have no reads.
2, Players may cold call raise with AQs leaving us dominated(But they may raise if limped too).
3, We're MP1, I raise this closer to the button to buy it and even if we dont, we have decent position over most.

However, Your flop play is bad... You must fold.

Remember, You have BOTTOM PAIR and a GUTSHOT. Unfortunatly theres a FD out there so:

Gutshot = 3
Queen = 1(heart)
jack = Worthless IMO unless some callers fold.

We need atleast 10:1 and we're getting 6:1 with co to act behind us.

Let it go, move on buddy.

[WalkAmongUs]

*grunch*

fold on the flop. You're drawing to only about 4 outs. Your 10 outs are discounted since the 10 of spades gives a flush and any other 10 might just result in a split. I'd value your 10 outs at 2. Your J outs are worth only 1 out at best since they can easily give someone a flush or a straight to beat you. Your Q outs are worth only 1 at best due to the two flush on board.

Getting 6:1 on the flop is not enough to draw to 4 outs. Not to mention you're already drawing near dead to 10J. Fold.

So do we have equity against a LP cold-caller or re-raiser, and maybe the BB? We might, but I'm guessing that it's a marginal edge. I agree that if I get a few cold-callers on board, then great, but I'm not that happy if I narrow the field considerably. I'm going to be missing my straight or flush draws most of the time, and if I don't catch a Q or J, my hand has little showdown value. And the jig is pretty much up if overcards hit.

I actually see this the other way around; that is, I'll raise if there are a lot of limpers already, for value, but I'd rather encourage limping by limping myself in EP.

[BoogerFace]

*grunching*

Fold on the flop? The pot is small and your probably behind to any A, K with only 4 clean outs. (3 tens and the Qh)

Turn as played is fine.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about .10/.20, but this is 7 handed. If there are already some limpers in the hand, then a limp is ok. But being the first one in, I open with QJs. It plays well multi way, so if everyone calls, no big deal, but if we can get a few folds, even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you open-raise QJs from MP1 at a full 10 handed game? I'm just wondering because I was thinking about tinkering with raising medium suited hands from an earlier position than I normally do. Usually with something like QJs or KJs, I'll open-raise no earlier than MP3.

I play 2/4 currently. I've also logged about 2,000 hands at 3/6. 3/6 will mess with you. I see 15/9/2 players raising with A7 offsuit from MP1. Blind stealing is taken to a new level there.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you open-raise QJs from MP1 at a full 10 handed game? I'm just wondering because I was thinking about tinkering with raising medium suited hands from an earlier position than I normally do. Usually with something like QJs or KJs, I'll open-raise no earlier than MP3.

I play 2/4 currently. I've also logged about 2,000 hands at 3/6. 3/6 will mess with you. I see 15/9/2 players raising with A7 offsuit from MP1. Blind stealing is taken to a new level there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I only play short hand, so I maybe a little aggressive. I probably would not raise QJs from MP1 in a full game. It's ok to do it in certain situations, or just to mix up your play a bit.

There's an argument to be made for open-raising 7-handed QJs. Otherwise I think we can just muck it.

We should just fold this flop. Bottom pair, and pot is not paying enough to draw at gutshot, which could be a split pot anyhow.

Nice suckout. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[midwestkc]

*grunching*

I'd fold the flop. bottom pair, plus the possibility of someone already having the str8 (meaning you may be drawing to a split, or worse if the flush completes) gives me not much hope of winning the pot outright.

[Hellmouth]

*Grunching

Too many people at this limit are playing Axo trash. With bottom pair you still only have bottom pair. I'm seeing a cheap turn to improve this hand then probably dumping it.
I dont think that you can be more aggressive here since there is a flush draw and you are way behind JT already.

Greg

[Pedigree]

Why would you want to fold the flop but think it's fine to check the turn? That seems like just as much of a fold as the flop is...

[DCWildcat]

grunch

How aggressive should we be with bottom pair and a gutshot, and really no clean outs? Not very. Fold the flop, hard, and try to fold the turn as well, even though you won't have any more cards, because you hate your hand just that much. If this same advice isn't given above, I'm ending it all.

[jaxUp]

I am calling the flop. Even if we only give ourselves 4 outs (reasonable, I think), we are getting 7:1. I am winning at least 2 more BB if I hit the turn, and probably more with BB in the middle. Seriously, the flop call isn't that bad. People need to chill.

[BoogerFace]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to fold the flop but think it's fine to check the turn? That seems like just as much of a fold as the flop is...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - total brain fart on my part.

[DMBFan23]

preflop is fine, so is raising

fold the flop no doubt about it

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
I am calling the flop. Even if we only give ourselves 4 outs (reasonable, I think), we are getting 7:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're only getting 6:1 on the flop. At .10/.20 if you hit on the turn or river you can expect to get your raise called as well as a call on the river in one, if not, two spots. I think its close but considering the level and probable opponents, I think you could probably call profitably here.

[Bill Lumberg]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally like to limp QJs in this situation, due to a few factors(Feel free to debate).

2, Players may cold call raise with AQs leaving us dominated(But they may raise if limped too).



[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you have KK, do you limp cause you're afraid someone may have AA? This is a raise every time and it's not even close.

I'd probably raise PF and fold the turn here.

[Pedigree]

[ QUOTE ]
I am calling the flop. Even if we only give ourselves 4 outs (reasonable, I think), we are getting 7:1. I am winning at least 2 more BB if I hit the turn, and probably more with BB in the middle. Seriously, the flop call isn't that bad. People need to chill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of those 4 outs you certainly don't know which are clean so you're not in a position to extract more BBs. It's probably that you hit something you think is an out and end up losing some BBs. Implied odds aren't that much of a factor here IMO.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

Of those 4 outs you certainly don't know which are clean so you're not in a position to extract more BBs. It's probably that you hit something you think is an out and end up losing some BBs. Implied odds aren't that much of a factor here IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already discounted our outs from 6 to 4. That was to account for the outs that are not clean. However, a few posts up somebody noted that it's really only 6:1, pushing it towards a fold. It's still not as bad as everybody's making it to be though.