$22: Abandoning AKo at 10/15 in early position

[caretaker1]

After checking Pokertracker recently I noticed that AKo was minimally profitable at this level. It seems like you either win a little when either the A or K hits or when it misses on the flop. Otherwise your continuation bet gets raised and you have to throw up the hand when you miss and are sometimes behind when the A or K does hit (screwball two pairs, sets, etc.). Out of position it is especially a problem as when you whiff and the late position player calls. A turn check will virtually always bring about a bet from the other player. Couple all this with minimal antes to win initially. Yes I'm rambling, but what others thoughts and experiences are about this idea.

[HesseJam]

Exactly how minimally profitable has it been for you in BB per hand?

[caretaker1]

.19

Two caveats:
Only 97 instances at that level (I realize way too few)
This is unpartitioned (across all positions)

[HesseJam]

How much do you raise in EP?

[caretaker1]

Almost always.

[splashpot]

I'm pretty sure he means "what amount do you raise in EP?"

[splashpot]

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.19

Two caveats:
Only 97 instances at that level (I realize way too few)
This is unpartitioned (across all positions)

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You can filter it to show only hands in late position.

[caretaker1]

Misread it. 65-80.

I think a lot here depends on which site you play at, i.e. how many starting chips you have, 800 or 1500. I don't have experience with 800 chips, but with 1500 chips I tend to limp in EP and bring it in for a raise when I get closer to the button. I've got no real stats as yet however to see if I'm winning or losing with this particular hand, so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

[caretaker1]

TY. I didn't realize that. Just checked:
First 4: +.12
First 3: -.11

In the first lvl (blinds 10/15, party) I've had AKo 17 times in the first 3 positions after the blinds (UTG, UTG+1 and UTG+2).

Chips won: t2760.
Average pr hand: t162.

Very small samplesize. Actually not useful at all.

[HesseJam]

Yeah, small sample size. But, hey, you earned about 11 BB per hand! Not too shabby.

However, let's assume you hit you A or K the next two hands and go or are put all-in and lose both hands to river suck-outs. Then you are back to 0. Variance!

[downtown]

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Otherwise your continuation bet gets raised

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I don't think it's fair to say that a c-bet is an unprofitable move with AKo, and I also don't think it's fair to say that a c-bet gets raised whenever an A or K do not hit.

[mosdef]

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Misread it. 65-80.

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Since you're talking about $22 tournaments and 10/15 blinds, I'm guessing that you're working with Party structure. In that case, I think open raising from early position for 65-80 is too much. I know that you're trying to get as few opponents as possible so that you can manage flops where you whiff. But as you noted, even heads up it's difficult to control things out of position. I usually raise less (3BB + 1 BB/limper in front of me). If I get 2+ callers I'm happy playing AK for TPTK value and running away from missed flops. If I get one caller I am much happier c-betting since the pot will be much smaller than if I had raised more.

Against poor opponents ($22 tourneys on Party qualify) my feeling is that the bulk of the value of AK is that you can stack off ALL weaker aces when and A hits. You can achieve this without large preflop raises.

[caretaker1]

Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't saying that these happened all the time, just all of the factors in aggregate made me raise the question.

[caretaker1]

Hmm. My only concern with that is at 45 chips (assuming no other early limper) that's giving a lot of implied odds to small pairs and suited connectors when there's callers. I agree that cracking smaller aces is where a lot of the value is, but the odds aren't great of having one, an opponent having one and one hitting the flop. In my experience at the $20's (could be skewed I suppose), this situation seldom arises (maybe AQ v. AK or AJ v. AK occasionally).

[caretaker1]

That's a good point; Stack depth could heavily influence this.

[mosdef]

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Hmm. My only concern with that is at 45 chips (assuming no other early limper) that's giving a lot of implied odds to small pairs and suited connectors when there's callers.

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What are you worried about here? Opponents playing crappy hands and then beating you if you hit TPTK and the other 2 cards on the flop happen to nail the opponents hand?

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I agree that cracking smaller aces is where a lot of the value is, but the odds aren't great of having one, an opponent having one and one hitting the flop. In my experience at the $20's (could be skewed I suppose), this situation seldom arises (maybe AQ v. AK or AJ v. AK occasionally).

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If you raise smaller, you will get called by more weak A and weak K who will be so glad that they hit TP that they are going to hand you lots of chips.

I understand your frustration from not "cleaning up" with AK. You will notice that a lot of the posts on here are about playing AK. Why do you think that is? I think that there are two reasons.

One is that it's really not a very easy hand to play, as you've noted.

Secondly, people tend to think of it (or at least react to it emotionally) like AA and KK and QQ. That is, it is part of the very narrow class of hands that you're happy to see in level 1. You have to remember that it is going to lose a lot more often than those hands, and it much harder to play. QQ-AA have strength because you can raise like a maniac and keep on raising and calling raises on every street with those hands and you'll come out pretty good. The same can't be said for AK. To get the value out of AK, you've got get weaker As and Ks to call preflop, and get them to pay you off when they hit their top pair. It's not easy, but I think that you can do better than your current approach which seems to force out a lot of weaker A and weaker K with big preflop raises and then handcuffs you on the flop when the pot is big in relation to your stack. AK is tougher than it looks. I suggest reducing your preflop raises and then trying to manage things on the flop. Post lots of these hands since they're going to tricky. But in the long run you'll turn AK into a valuable level 1 hand, even from early position.

[caretaker1]

Hmm. I will ponder this some more.

I raise the same amount whether I have AA, AK or 72o. T60-65 is my standard raise in lvl 1 regardless of position.

[mosdef]

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I raise the same amount whether I have AA, AK or 72o. T60-65 is my standard raise in lvl 1 regardless of position.

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You raise 72o? Aggressive!

Raising 60-65 is fine, IMO, except that you need to adjust to the number of limpers/raises, etc. I assume that you meant only if you are first in you raise the same amount?

Also, my 3BB + 1BB/limper "rule" from above is also what I use for AA and KK. I didn't mean to suggest that you should raise huge for AA/KK and less for AK, necessarily. It all depends on a range of factors.

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Raising 60-65 is fine, IMO, except that you need to adjust to the number of limpers/raises, etc. I assume that you meant only if you are first in you raise the same amount?

Also, my 3BB + 1BB/limper "rule" from above is also what I use for AA and KK. I didn't mean to suggest that you should raise huge for AA/KK and less for AK, necessarily. It all depends on a range of factors.

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72o is such an awesome hand. I use the +1BB/limper rule too. If someone raises before me I usually raise three times his raise.

[mosdef]

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If someone raises before me I usually raise three times his raise.

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With which holdings? If I have AK I call behind here because I don't want to give opponent a chance to reraise all-in behing me. I am okay playing AK with position against the preflop aggressor.

If someone raises to, say, 50 in level 1, I think a reraise to 150 is a BIG mistake.

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With which holdings? If I have AK I call behind here because I don't want to give opponent a chance to reraise all-in behing me. I am okay playing AK with position against the preflop aggressor.

If someone raises to, say, 50 in level 1, I think a reraise to 150 is a BIG mistake.

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Oh, sorry. AA-QQ. With AK I flat call unless I'm bored and want lots of action /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I only flat call in level 1-2.