I KNOW it's the Devil's Hand......

[PokerBob]

.....yet I play it anyway. Please flame me.
Canterbury 15/30 9 handed. Villain here will open up his range quite a bit in LP.
one monkey limps in MP. Villain raises in the CO. I call in the BB with KJo.

Flop 3 ways: K92r
I check, monkey checks, villain bets, I raise, monkey folds, villain 3-bets. What's my line the rest of the way?

Call down.

[ QUOTE ]
Call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think I can give a better reply than this. Against this aggressive opponent, calling down seems to be the best strategy IMO. I'd also like to mention that When an aggressive player in late position isolates a single limper, KJo in the BB is a must play, You should be folding KJo to a legitimate raise in most cases, but not in this situation, you have too big of a hand to fold so I wouldnt feel bad about calling, its the right play.

[flawless_victory]

fourbet the flop.
bet/fold the turn.
bet/fold the river.

if he goes five on the flop, call and fold turn UI.

[CardSharpCook]

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again - Westley is one of the best posters in this forum. His post is right on the money again.

BTW: everybody knows that trip sixes is the Devil's hand.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
fourbet the flop.
bet/fold the turn.
bet/fold the river.

if he goes five on the flop, call and fold turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[roy_miami]

I would pull a stop and go on the turn, call a raise if there is one and maybe stop and go the river if its a friendly card. I actually used this line in a similar situation earlier tonight with KJo, villain folded the river after raising the turn.

I like roy's Stop and Go, but I wouldn't fault calling it down, either, depending on the flop and turn, of course

If you don't mind really pushing the aggression up a bit, you could also check raise the turn. You run the risk of being faced with making a decision if you're three-bet, but you also increase the chance he'll fold it.

At the very least, I like the check raise on the turn better than four-betting the flop, but still won't fault checking it down. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You could make some arguments for a stop and go, but only if you're folding to a raise.

[SA125]

He's almost certain to auto bet the turn, so wouldn't check-calling it save you money when behind and make money when you're ahead?

I'd want to show this hand down. I like check-calling the turn and donking the river, whether he bet the turn or not, because he'd be hard pressed to raise AK-KQ there and it prevents a check behind by TT-JJ-QQ.

[einbert]

I really don't like raising this flop.

[phish]

The implication I'm hearing from this thread is that KJ is not a strong enough hand to defend the big blind with against a legitimate raise. Wow, you guys must play a totally different game from what I know. Sounds like you're giving up way too much there, in my opinion.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
The implication I'm hearing from this thread is that KJ is not a strong enough hand to defend the big blind with against a legitimate raise. Wow, you guys must play a totally different game from what I know. Sounds like you're giving up way too much there, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I was implying at all.

[vmacosta]

I vote call the flop. Bet out on K turn or c/r J turn, otherwise check and call. River depends heavily on opponent and how he thinks of you. Suffice to say that if he checks turn, a bet/fold line on river is usually mandatory, and if you c/c turn, I'd often just c/c river again.

If villain is the type to open his range up quite a bit in LP, then he's probably used to being c/r'ed on the flop a fair amount. Thus, he may have decided to take a stand with something like QJ with bd flush draw, QQ-TT, or any pair on board. If this is the case, we'd rather not give a free card, but note that he's already stuck in 3 sb with a weak draw. Thus if we look like we're shutting down, he will probably bet turn for us, hoping to fold us. If he checks behind, well then he paid 3 sb for his weak draw instead of the 4 he'd have paid by calling our flop c/r and turn lead, and he'll usually only get 1 more BB out of us on the river if he hit anyway (when we bet/fold). If he has a hand like Kx and doesn't make 2pair, we'll be annoyed that we didn't quite extract the maximum but I think this is offset by the times when our passivity causes us to stay for a J river that snaps his AA/AK/KQ.

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
fourbet the flop.
bet/fold the turn.
bet/fold the river.

if he goes five on the flop, call and fold turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]


Playing live this would be my line. When you fourbet its goona freeze him no matter what he has, and you should be able to tell if its a "[censored] maybe my ak is no good" or [censored] "I gotta pay him off with 88."

[steveyz]

If villian is the type that likes to raise/3-bet flop for a free turn, then donk bet the turn. If he likes to check through river, donk the river. Basically just make sure at least one bet goes in every street unless the board gets really scary or something.

Call the three bet, check fold UI on the turn.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the three bet, check fold UI on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this line as vastly worse than

a) 4-bet flop, bet/fold turn, bet/fold river, and

b) call down.

In what way(s) is your line better?

Because more times than not KJ is paying off a better hand the whole way. He check raises from upfront, and then gets 3 -bet. What is he beating at this point?

According to Advanced hold'em this is one of the hands that pays off a lot....


He can beat QQ, AQ, JJ, 10-10, He's nearly dead to AK KQ AA KK and all sets.


I'm just going by what sklansky says about trouble hands here OOP....

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
.....yet I play it anyway. Please flame me.
Canterbury 15/30 9 handed. Villain here will open up his range quite a bit in LP.
one monkey limps in MP. Villain raises in the CO. I call in the BB with KJo.

Flop 3 ways: K92r
I check, monkey checks, villain bets, I raise, monkey folds, villain 3-bets. What's my line the rest of the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

if this was me in your spot i could have a small pair vs. a wide range villian in LP or T9s or something like that so a flop 3bet is correct. id also call down with the KJ here so id just acll it down. try to use your powers of observation on the turn and see if he's happy with your call. a river bet may be in order.

Barron

Given villian's raising range here, how about a pre-flop 3 bet? The limper may fold and if not that's okay, he's easy to read. True, you are out of position, but you may indeed have the best hand. If not, having represented a big hand you now take the lead and make the villian make tough decisions and as a result should read him better, particularly a brick and mortar player. I also like the meta-game aspects. Unwarranted chip spewing? Please elaborate.

[GreywolfNYC]

I think this hand gives me more trouble than any other, and it's got me thinking lately that even limping in behind someone with it in early position may not be such a hot idea. I will, however, defend in the BB with it 100% of the time (and I'm not sure that that's correct either).
I agree with those who said that you're either way ahead or way behind here and I dont think that trying to get tricky with it out of position makes much sense. I vote for calling it down.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fourbet the flop.
bet/fold the turn.
bet/fold the river.

if he goes five on the flop, call and fold turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
well my post was as clear/concise as they come, so what is it you are huh-ing?

[CardSharpCook]

your line is baffling. 4bet and bet/fold? So faced with the possibility of seeing the showdown for 2BBs, you would have us fold the turn after paying 1.5BBs? Are you really going to let him bluff you out for one more bet on the turn which a player like this guy is certainly capable of? Are you really going to put in another 2.5BBs and then fold to a desperation river bluff?

What is the purpose of 4betting here? Are we trying to shut him out of 3 outs on the river? Or do we want to tell him in even more precise terms, "yes, I have a king or better." Your clear/concise post requires some explanation. In fact, clear concise isn't what you should be going for. Help the OP (and the rest of us) follow your train of thought and understand why your baffling line is best. This isn't a quiz to see who can give the right answer the fastest, this is a place for discussion of what and WHY a play is best.

That's the "huh". Your line seems like bluff-killing spewing and you haven't provided an explanation as to why you might be right.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
So faced with the possibility of seeing the showdown for 2BBs, you would have us fold the turn after paying 1.5BBs? Are you really going to let him bluff you out for one more bet on the turn which a player like this guy is certainly capable of?

[/ QUOTE ]
the playr description was brief, but from what i read the is NO FVCKING WAY he is capable of bluffing there... 99.9% of live 15/30 plyrs are not. if he raises the expensive sts. after u show aggresion, u are dead.


[ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of 4betting here?

[/ QUOTE ]
wins substantially more than calling down flop/turn and prob watching the river go checkcheck.
good for metagame....
in my regular live 30 (i dont play much recently because its not worth that much $wise), alot of the plyrs are scared of me... they actively avoid me cause im so aggro... that is a good thing.

[MNpoker]

Guess I'm the only one who bets this flop /images/graemlins/confused.gif