PP 20/40 - Back to Basics

[Dazarath]

I've been doing poorly lately, so I'm trying to re-examine my game, starting from the basics. Villain is unknown here. I tend to call down in these types of situations, but then I'm reminded of posts I've read in the past where people said that sometimes people's fear of being outplayed leads them to make -EV calldowns. I think I'm one of those people, but it's more from a desire to see showdown.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, planning to call any non-overcard river.

[CardSharpCook]

this is one of those times where you decide to either call down or believe him. I really don't understand this line. [ QUOTE ]
Hero calls, planning to call any non-overcard river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you decide to pay him off, pay him off. There are a number of drawing hands that have nothing to do with overcards.

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
If you decide to pay him off, pay him off. There are a number of drawing hands that have nothing to do with overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just feel that the range of hands that an unknown will CC in the SB and then make a play tend to include Qs and especially As. So your advice would be to call any river then? I'm fairly new to the 20/40 game, as I've spent most of my time at the 15/30 tables.

What about the calldown against an unknown? Should I change my standard to folding? It seems to me that the players are a lot more aggressive at the 20/40 level than the 15/30. On one hand, I don't want to be making -EV calldowns, but on the other hand, it's terrible for my table image to be folding to every turn checkraise when I don't have TPGK+.

[CardSharpCook]

the Party 15 and the party 20 are not that different. When I first moved up, I was surprised by how many more opportunites there were to play limping hands. However, that may have just been variance. I don't think there is much difference btwn the two. (I am currently at 20, having moved here in August, but had to spend 40K hands at 15 last month.)

On this hand, I think your standard should be folding, but mix it up with call downs every once in a while. In general, people bet/raise because they have a hand that they like. In general, they call down with hands they are not sure of. In this hand, he might like his draw, or he might like his king. I think that 60-70% of the time it will be a king.

I also believe that when you are moving up levels, you/we have a tendency to call down a little more than we should.

[Dazarath]

Ok, thanks for the input. I think a major leak in my game is my tendency to calldown too much. That tendency just gets reinforced by those times when I do get shown a bluff. I should probably add these situations to my standard fold list.

[CardSharpCook]

I have the same problem. In life, if someone lies to you, it takes a great deal of time and NO LIES before you start to trust them again. That is "normal". It is easy allow this human characteristic to carry over into your poker game. But yeah, when I'm playing bad I am thinking "you're all full of [censored]. Bluff, bluff, bluff. Sure, you have the ace, buddy. You're just gonna have to prove it to me." I am not thinking, "you are playing this hand this way because you like your hand and believe it to be correct to play it in this fashion. What does that mean?"

[stigmata]

I find it helps to go through a mental check-list of thing to think about when put in these spots: Do I call down with medium strenght hand against someone representing a strong hand?

1) What is my image? Have I been folding a lot to flop/turn raises? Have I been showing down lots of winners? Have I been calling down a lot?

2) What is villains style? Any reads at all? Just one hand can swing it either way. Any stats? Calling down more against lagier players is an obvious default play, but not allways correct.

3) What is the board texture: How likely are 2-pair, straights and flushes to be made already?

4) How big is the pot?

5) Has a new draw just appeared on the board? Is villain capable of making a move with a draw+pair combo?

6) Is there something "fishy" about villains betting sequence. For example, the flop comes Q23 two-tone. The turn comes a Queen and the villain raises. He is representing trips (or better), but I am fairly confident he would have raised top pair on the flop, and would not have cold-called 22 or 33, etc.


The default is to believe what people are representing. When arriving fresh at a table, I would tend to err on the side of caution and fold. Think through the situation coldly &amp; rationally and see if you can logically justify calling down. "I think he is full of it" is never enough, you need specific reasons.

[DeeJ]

nice post. I have to take more care to notice each of these examples to avoid the CSC "you're full of it" danger. I find I assume that people "are full of it" more when I sit down because I often don't know anything about them. The correct thinking should be they are playing normally, and I am the new guy who is full of it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lil feller]

This is probably really weak, but how about a turn check/river call or bet if checked too? Almost always if a Aggro opponent just check/calls the flop, he's going to check/fold or check/raise the turn. Am I the only guy that doesn't bet the turn here?

lf

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
turn check/river call

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I just confirm that this line is basically OK as long as two prerequisites exist:

1) We don't know how to deal with a turn raise.

2) Villain will normally bluff the river. This way he pays for his draws with bluffs.

It's allways best to have a plan before you bet, whether that is call down or fold to a raise. Basically the above line is a "plan B" when against aggressive players and we really don't know how to deal with a raise.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
turn check/river call

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I just confirm that this line is basically OK as long as two prerequisites exist:

1) We don't know how to deal with a turn raise.

2) Villain will normally bluff the river. This way he pays for his draws with bluffs.

It's allways best to have a plan before you bet, whether that is call down or fold to a raise. Basically the above line is a "plan B" when against aggressive players and we really don't know how to deal with a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both very good points. It certainly sounds as if OP doesn't know what to do on the turn once he gets raised, so I'd be inclined to take the opportunity away from the villian by checking what has turned into a marginal hand.

lf

[Dazarath]

Thanks for the input. I think I should start systematically going through a list like that as well. I tend to just pick an option, but not always because I have good reasoning backing the choice.

lil feller: I usually don't like a check in this situation, because mosr hands that call the flop have 5 outs. This isn't to say I'd never check here, but it's not my standard. I like to try to stay open to different lines, even if it's not my standard.

[AceHigh]

I think this is totally opponent dependent. In the old 15/30 before 30/60 expanded - my default would be call down, in the new 20/40 - my default would be fold.