PDA

View Full Version : opening to my essay


housenuts
11-15-2005, 12:23 AM
how's this as an opening to my essay that was due 2 weeks ago?

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower. New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions. Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments. At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation. One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

if you can think of better anecdotes than the 3 i listed please share.

istewart
11-15-2005, 12:27 AM
The last sentence looks pretty shoddy.

11-15-2005, 12:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]


The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes (easier).

[/ QUOTE ]

How about (more convenient)?

StevieG
11-15-2005, 12:33 AM
Opening is also questionable. Is your thesis really that an easier life is the problem with modern society? Or is it that the advances that make life easier have detrimental side effects?

PoBoy321
11-15-2005, 12:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've obviously never met these guys.

http://content.ytmnd.com//40000/40025/image.gif

housenuts
11-15-2005, 12:34 AM
the essay is actually about the boy scouts as an imperialist organization

istewart
11-15-2005, 12:37 AM
wtf

diebitter
11-15-2005, 12:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's just not gonna happen. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

housenuts
11-15-2005, 01:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not the full introduction. it goes on to say that because of this, baden-powell starts the scout movement to prepare young boys to become soldiers. and this will help them defend their empire, blah blah

StevieG
11-15-2005, 01:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not the full introduction. it goes on to say that because of this, baden-powell starts the scout movement to prepare young boys to become soldiers. and this will help them defend their empire, blah blah

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't believe this idea of labor saving making men soft, Baden-Powell did. Why start the essay this way? If it is to throw his motives into question, you need to make it clear he thinks this, not you.

Go_Blue88
11-15-2005, 01:18 AM
You use the passive voice way too much. By eliminating this, your paper will not only be more concise, but more importantly, sophisticated.

For example, let's take your first two sentences, "The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower."

You could re-write this as: As a result of the technology inherent in an advanced society, machines replace manpower, which increases unemployment in the society.

I obviously did this pretty quickly, but I'm just trying to illustrate the general idea.

"The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier; technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower."

Or just put in a semi-colon. Your first sentence indicates that a problem with advanced society is that life becomes easier, but your overall pt is that this is a problem b/c of the increase in unemployment.

phixxx
11-15-2005, 01:27 AM
Good thing we're doing squat thrusts with our large, triangular iron weights!

Go_Blue88
11-15-2005, 01:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Good thing we're doing squat thrusts with our large, triangular iron weights!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just trying to help, but ya, woooooo I'm a real badass b/c I have a lot of experience in writing. Woooo ya!

scotty34
11-15-2005, 01:47 AM
slight hijack, but check out this

http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern

This site is hilarious. It randomly generates a "post-modern" essay.

housenuts
11-15-2005, 02:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
slight hijack, but check out this

http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern

This site is hilarious. It randomly generates a "post-modern" essay.

[/ QUOTE ]

good god. postmodern is exactly the type of writing i utterly despise

Chaostracize
11-15-2005, 02:07 AM
It was a dark and stormy night...

citanul
11-15-2005, 02:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
how's this as an opening to my essay that was due 2 weeks ago?

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower. New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions. Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments. At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation. One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

if you can think of better anecdotes than the 3 i listed please share.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a very terrible opening paragraph if you want to talk about the scouts. and if your response is "but then i go on to talk about the scouts" you might want to repost the whole paragraph, instead of just the part that's not about your thesis.

thesis paragraphs are, after all, about stating your thesis. asking someone what they think of your thesis paragraph without including the thesis part, just some sentences, vaguely comprising a paragraph, is not great work man.

With what's there, I'd say your opening sentence is weak, and at least for the next few sentences, your sentences get weaker.

For instance, at the moment, it appears that your thesis for your paper is "the problem with ... becomes easier." not only is this a [censored] thesis, it's not the thesis you intent to write about.

Continuing, you make a totally random jump to Britain a few sentences in, that doesn't follow at all. In fact, even the sentence bringing in Britain isn't very good. Your use of the word "surmise" is terrible, and well, this is the thesis, you're not supposed to be telling the audience what they could surmise, you're supposed to state things, or state what *you* are going to surmise. There's no reason that anyone should "surmise" that being the most advanced nation means that you lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle, so there's no reason to tell your readers that that's what they might do. Further, what the hell is an easy and luxurious lifestyle? Surely you don't mean that we're supposed to believe that all British people have some servant (not British, of course) who feeds them peeled grapes all day and massages their back.

Finally, the last 2 sentences make no sense at all, and are totally not related to anything else that precedes them.

If you want further help with this sort of thing, you might again, want to post the whole paragraph, instead of not. As it is, I don't nkow if you wanted help, or just to show off your cool paragraph. Both ways, though, weren't so good.

c

SackUp
11-15-2005, 02:22 AM
thank god i'm not an undergrad prof is all i have to say.

p.s. if you didn't get my joke then look left to see how I really feel.

<------------

DcifrThs
11-15-2005, 02:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how's this as an opening to my essay that was due 2 weeks ago?

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower. New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions. Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments. At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation. One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

if you can think of better anecdotes than the 3 i listed please share.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a very terrible opening paragraph if you want to talk about the scouts. and if your response is "but then i go on to talk about the scouts" you might want to repost the whole paragraph, instead of just the part that's not about your thesis.

thesis paragraphs are, after all, about stating your thesis. asking someone what they think of your thesis paragraph without including the thesis part, just some sentences, vaguely comprising a paragraph, is not great work man.

With what's there, I'd say your opening sentence is weak, and at least for the next few sentences, your sentences get weaker.

For instance, at the moment, it appears that your thesis for your paper is "the problem with ... becomes easier." not only is this a [censored] thesis, it's not the thesis you intent to write about.

Continuing, you make a totally random jump to Britain a few sentences in, that doesn't follow at all. In fact, even the sentence bringing in Britain isn't very good. Your use of the word "surmise" is terrible, and well, this is the thesis, you're not supposed to be telling the audience what they could surmise, you're supposed to state things, or state what *you* are going to surmise. There's no reason that anyone should "surmise" that being the most advanced nation means that you lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle, so there's no reason to tell your readers that that's what they might do. Further, what the hell is an easy and luxurious lifestyle? Surely you don't mean that we're supposed to believe that all British people have some servant (not British, of course) who feeds them peeled grapes all day and massages their back.

Finally, the last 2 sentences make no sense at all, and are totally not related to anything else that precedes them.

If you want further help with this sort of thing, you might again, want to post the whole paragraph, instead of not. As it is, I don't nkow if you wanted help, or just to show off your cool paragraph. Both ways, though, weren't so good.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent post.

i just read it, shook my head and lamented at what passes for writing in schools.

then i read what the TOPIC was and almost spit up my water. introductory paragraph that doesn't even MENTION the main idea of the paper. rediculous.

to housenuts: how old are you? what is the assignment? who chose the topic? what grade are you in? what class is this for? what are the grading criteria? how long must the paper be? are sources required? are footnotes and other citings required? is there a particular type of essay structure to which your teacher would like you to adhere (other than the simple Thesis/intro, body, conclusion model)?

Barron

beckham9
11-15-2005, 02:25 AM
this is the stupidest arguement i have ever heard. yes lets expose everyone to small pox so we can toughen them up

scotty34
11-15-2005, 02:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this is the stupidest arguement i have ever heard. yes lets expose everyone to small pox so we can toughen them up

[/ QUOTE ]

you do realize that is exactly how vaccines work right?

housenuts
11-15-2005, 04:09 AM
this is not the introductory paragraph to my paper. this is the start of the 2nd paragraph that outlines why britains men are weak.

perhaps i should reword the topic sentence to say something along the lines of 'Britain's men were weaker than previous generations because there were not as many challenges on the homefront as before'

something like that. i dunno. keep laying into me

The Goober
11-15-2005, 05:12 AM
odd, when I read your post, I hear it in the voice of james t. kirk. I think, it's all, the extra, commas.

but, I do agree with you.

citanul
11-15-2005, 11:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this is not the introductory paragraph to my paper. this is the start of the 2nd paragraph that outlines why britains men are weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

now i'm sort of less worried about your opening paragraph, but maybe sort of more worried about your opening paragraph. clearly there are distinctions between what belongs in the first paragraph of an academic paper and what belongs in the second paragraph of same, however that clearly doesn't fix any of the problems of general non-sensicalness or non-flowing logic and rhythm.

i think it would be in your best interest to post your opening paragraph and see a writing TA if that's possible.

c

11-15-2005, 11:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
how's this as an opening to my essay that was due 2 weeks ago?

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower. New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions. Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments. At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation. One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

if you can think of better anecdotes than the 3 i listed please share.

[/ QUOTE ]

Several things:

1_ Don't say "The" problem. You make it sound like there is one problem. And, in general, saying "The problem" is awful grammar - we're not on the playground in middle school. You can say "One of the challenges . . . "

2- "Life becomes easier." Huh? What does this mean? "Life"? Say exactly what you mean. Life means alot of things. Do you mean the standard of living increases? Do you mean there are less chores to do?

3- oh, phuck it. I'll just rewrite it for you. There's just too many mistakes to list. Here you go:

One of the challenges that often confront advanced societies is the increased ease of daily life. Machines replace hard labor. New medicines and food preservation techniques aid, initially, the immune system.

One example is Britain at the turn of the century. One of the most advanced nations at the time, its populace enjoyed the fruits of technology, resulting in less daily hardships than those experienced by, say, an inhabitant of South Africa or Canada.


Leave out the sentence about British men becoming weak.

TheWorstPlayer
11-15-2005, 11:56 AM
I could post something long and helpful, but I'm too lazy so I'll just say that this opening sucks. Obviously this board can't teach you how to write in this thread, though. Try submitting this one but then actually asking for some feedback from your teacher/professor. Better to learn how to write late than never.

SackUp
11-15-2005, 01:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how's this as an opening to my essay that was due 2 weeks ago?

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier. Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower. New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions. Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments. At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation. One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.

if you can think of better anecdotes than the 3 i listed please share.

[/ QUOTE ]

Several things:

1_ Don't say "The" problem. You make it sound like there is one problem. And, in general, saying "The problem" is awful grammar - we're not on the playground in middle school. You can say "One of the challenges . . . "

2- "Life becomes easier." Huh? What does this mean? "Life"? Say exactly what you mean. Life means alot of things. Do you mean the standard of living increases? Do you mean there are less chores to do?

3- oh, phuck it. I'll just rewrite it for you. There's just too many mistakes to list. Here you go:

One of the challenges that often confront advanced societies is the increased ease of daily life. Machines replace hard labor. New medicines and food preservation techniques aid, initially, the immune system.

One example is Britain at the turn of the century. One of the most advanced nations at the time, its populace enjoyed the fruits of technology, resulting in less daily hardships than those experienced by, say, an inhabitant of South Africa or Canada.


Leave out the sentence about British men becoming weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you intentionally rewrite this to sound even worse than the OP's post, so you can make him feel better? If so, well done. If not, you need help as well.

Fortunately for both of you, college profs typically require very little in the form of writing b/c most of your competition will be awful as well.

I suggest both of you take some writing classes and read the book Elements of Style by Strunk and White.

And so you know, I sucked at writing in undergrad as well. I did not learn how to write until law school.

LittleOldLady
11-15-2005, 02:32 PM
I spent the last 30 years reading messes like this for a living. (As my son would say, "It sucked to be me.") First thing, throw that piece of junk out and start over. I gather that your subject has something to do with Lord Baden-Powell and the Boy Scouts. If that's the case, ask yourself exactly what point you want to make about Baden-Powell and the Boy Scouts, and start right in with it. None of this "in today's/yesterday's society" crap that poor writers inevitably put in the first paragraph.

So something like:

When Sir Robert Baden-Powell, Lord Baden-Powell of Gilwell, looked at his fellow Britons shortly after the turn of the twentieth century, he saw a nation of men who had, in his view, grown weak due to advances in technology and reliance on labor-saving devices.

Then go on from there. (That,of course, is a sample opening sentence, since I have no real clue as to what your essay is supposed to be about.) BTW it is by no means beyond argument that labor-saving devices make life easier. It has been demonstrated that they often raise the bar of expectations and can make life harder and more complicated.

BTW, two weeks late!!! If you were my student, I wouldn't even accept a paper that late unless it was accompanied by a doctor's note saying you'd had major surgery. It's your education, and you need to get on the ball.

11-15-2005, 03:10 PM
Get the f**k outta here. I'm doing waht I can with what he gave me. I am a lawyer and have forgtten more about writing than you will ever learn. He said that this was not the opening paragraph. I don't know if his facts are right, etc. I just took what he had and arranged it in the most logical, concise way.

After reading my post, please do us all a favor and commit suicide in the quickest manner possible. That is all.

p.s. You're telling me to read Strunk and White? You are truly a moron. Email me a brief or memo of yours so I can destroy it. I doubt you can even comprehend the Blue Book rules.

SackUp
11-15-2005, 04:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am a lawyer and have forgtten more about writing than you will ever learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is apparent you have "forgotten" how to write.

[ QUOTE ]
I just took what he had and arranged it in the most logical, concise way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you wrote was niether logical nor concise. The advice you gave in points one and two were spot on. You just didn't convey those points very well. Granted, you were not given much to work with, but still, not that great.

[ QUOTE ]
You're telling me to read Strunk and White? You are truly a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think Strunk and White is a good book, then you need more help than I thought.

[ QUOTE ]
Email me a brief or memo of yours so I can destroy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need. You can read my opinions on westlaw or lexis. I've externed for a bankruptcy judge, magistrate judge, and court of appeal judge. Further, I will be clerking for a district court judge after I graduate. Then you can not only read what I've written, but you can cite it! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here are a couple samples:

People v. Cea 2005 WL 1685286

Bustos v. County of San Diego 2005 WL 2277632

Please destroy them. HA!

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt you can even comprehend the Blue Book rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about a piece of crap. The BB is extremely poorly written. With that said, I would not back down from a blue booking challenge from anyone. That's all I do on Law Review. I would definitely take a challenge from a practicing lawyer b/c you don't have to use all of the rules nearly as often nor do you have time to look them all up. You probably will never know the BB better than you do while in law school on Law Review. Therefore, I will take any challenge on that.

In any case, judging a person based on the rewording of crap is hardly indicative of one's writing ability. I'm sure you can write far better than what was posted on here - at least I hope so. I have definitely seen my fair share of awful briefs while working at the courts though. It is amazing the crap people turn in. Whether it is incompetence or time constraints I don't know, but wow, many lawyers need help writing as well.

Have a good one!

pokerdirty
11-15-2005, 04:28 PM
i'm looking at your guys little flame war going on here, and its pretty funny. im imagining one of you is a cockroach (the lawyer, ha!), and the other one of you is barfing all over the place.

god avatars are fun.

11-15-2005, 05:30 PM
You should know that an extern is not allowed to lay any claim to any opinion that s/he wrote (helped write) while externing for a judge. I externed for a US Appeals justice (3rd Circuit) and a US District Court judge and both were adamant about this.

Other than that, good job on landing a clerkship. If it's federal, even better.

SackUp
11-15-2005, 07:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should know that an extern is not allowed to lay any claim to any opinion that s/he wrote (helped write) while externing for a judge. I externed for a US Appeals justice (3rd Circuit) and a US District Court judge and both were adamant about this.

Other than that, good job on landing a clerkship. If it's federal, even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must be circuit dependent b/c all 3 judges I have worked for allow me to use the opinions I wrote as writing samples. Two of them just said it was cool and then the court of appeal has a form that says that it is cool, so I can show employers that I'm not using them w/o permission.

All three of mine have been in CA (9th cir), so it must be either different in the 3rd Cir or your judges have certain chambers rules against it.

Anyhow, sorry for the harshness earlier. It is far to easy to criticize freely in OOT. I'm sure you are great writer if you externed for both a circuit judge and a district judge.

housenuts
11-16-2005, 11:37 PM
is "turn of the century" generally understood to be the 1900's or does it have to be explicitly stated that it is that "turn" that is being referred to.

i'm revamping my whole essay now thanks to constructive criticism. if anyone actually cares to read the final copy that can be arranged

housenuts
11-17-2005, 12:16 AM
how is this? i don't really like my 3rd sentence...

Britain was arguably the most advanced society at the turn of the century. Although the nation as a whole was prosperous, its men were becoming weak. Due to its relatively lengthy history few challenges remained at home to test the moral and physical fortitude of men. Robert Baden-Powell was one of the first to be alarmed by this onset of effete men. He reckoned that without restoration of good character and work ethic amongst youths, the nation was in danger of imminent collapse. Upon his return from the Boer War in South Africa he established the Boy Scouts to combat this deterioration of virile men. Although not established as an imperialist organization, many of its underlying values proved beneficial to the empire.

LittleOldLady
11-17-2005, 11:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
how is this? i don't really like my 3rd sentence...

Britain was arguably the most advanced society at the turn of the century. Although the nation as a whole was prosperous, its men were becoming weak. Due to its relatively lengthy history few challenges remained at home to test the moral and physical fortitude of men. Robert Baden-Powell was one of the first to be alarmed by this onset of effete men. He reckoned that without restoration of good character and work ethic amongst youths, the nation was in danger of imminent collapse. Upon his return from the Boer War in South Africa he established the Boy Scouts to combat this deterioration of virile men. Although not established as an imperialist organization, many of its underlying values proved beneficial to the empire.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that this sentence "Although the nation as a whole was prosperous, its men were becoming weak" is an assertion that needs support. What evidence is there that British men were in fact becoming weak? and weak in what sense? moral weakness or physical weakness? Less stamina? Less ability to pick up heavy objects? Compromised immune systems? Life expectancy, for example, was increasing, not decreasing. Whatyou need to do is recast the sentence to say something like "there was concern that men were becoming weak" or "some people felt that men were becoming weak." If you just flat out assert that men were becoming weak in whatever sense(s), you must supply supporting evidence. One problem in the third sentence is that 'it' has an ambiguous antecedent. The bigger problem with the third sentence is that it is not merely lengthy history that would lead to few challenges. There are many countries with lengthy histories that are challenged all over the place. Perhaps you mean that Britain's success at empire-building left fewer challenges at home. I still think you ought to get rid of those first three sentences that really don't say much and start right in with Baden-Powell. It is not really important whether ot not Britain's men were becoming effete. What is important to your essay is that Baden-Powell thought they were and that was his motive for founding the Boy Scouts and that the Boy Scouts as an organization promoted imperialist values.

TheWorstPlayer
11-17-2005, 12:09 PM
Yes. OP, why don't you write down your 3 biggest points that you want to get across in the most simple short plain english sentences that you can. Then look at those three sentences while you are writing the essay. If you are about to say something in your essay that does not directly relate to one of those three sentences, do not write it. I think you are confusing yourself (and your reader) by trying to be fancy. The best writing is simple, clear writing. Just make your point clearly and logically with good support. That's it. Don't say anything that doesn't have a clear reason for being said.

JaBlue
11-17-2005, 12:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]

The problem with an advanced society is that with each new development, life becomes easier.


[/ QUOTE ]

should be:
"The problem with an advanced society is that each new development makes life easier"

[ QUOTE ]

Technology enables machines to do work that otherwise would have to be done by manpower.


[/ QUOTE ]
"Machines make the need for manpower obsolete" - maybe add some qualifier like 'In many cases,' up to you really

[ QUOTE ]

New materials and clothing keep the men and women warm rather than forcing them become accustomed to adverse conditions.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is very awkward

[ QUOTE ]

Improvements in medicine and the preparation and storage of food create immune systems that are not prepared to deal with the removal of these developments.


[/ QUOTE ]
ok

[ QUOTE ]

At the turn of the century Britain was arguably the most advanced nation.


[/ QUOTE ]
Which century? We know but you still have to tell the reader

[ QUOTE ]

One could surmise that this enabled them to lead a relatively easy and luxurious lifestyle. Certainly the hardships they had to go through on a daily basis were less than that of the average Boer of South Africa, or even inhabitants of Canada. This meant that Britain’s men were becoming weak.


[/ QUOTE ]
"one could surmise" is unnecssary and... dunno how to say... bad.

Then you say "certainly." How do you go from saying "you might suppose" to "definitely?"

Replace 'go through' with face.

"The hardships were... less..."
use a better adjective than 'less'


"the average" is unnecssary. Just say "a"

"or even inhabitants of canada" is in the wrong spot if you want to include it at all

"this meant that britain's men were becoming weak"
This can just be omitted.

You have a lot of work to do. Good luck.

11-17-2005, 12:12 PM
Please stop saying "men were becoming weak."