ATs on the button early in tournament

[cferejohn]

I've been having a problem lately in NL tournaments. I seem to do quite well once I get to the 4th level or so (i.e. 50/100 blinds at Pokerstars (1500 starting chips)), but I have trouble playing in the early going, often getting knocked out or crippled early. I decided the problem was that I was being too aggressive pre-flop. While buying the blinds is effective and profitable in later rounds, when the blinds are 10/20 or 15/30 a) it doesn't work as often since people will call more often with drawing hands (and often be correct to do so) and b) when it does work, it doesn't get you many chips. I think what happened was that I recently won a tournament and placed second in another and was chip leader for quite a while in both. At that point, even at a full table, I was often raising with nothing or close to it, and I wasn't adjusting to being at low blinds with a normal stack.

With this in mind, I sat down to a single table $50+5 NL tournament at PokerStars last night.

Early on (blinds 10/20), I get A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif on the button. There are 2 EP callers. I call, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop is 3/forums/images/icons/club.gif 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif T/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. Checked to me. I bet the pot (100). SB calls, others fold. Turn is 6/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. Checked to me again. I bet the pot (300). SB check-raises all in (I have him outchipped by less than 200). I don't know this player and this is a new game, so after some thought, I call. He has T6o for a turned 2 pair. River is another 6, for good measure, and I am out shortly thereafter.

First of all, the all-in call was undeniably bad. Most players only make this play with something better than top pair. I thought it was possible that 88, 99, or KT could be played this way, but not hugely likely. Something like 33, 77, or 66 seemed much more likely. Being that I consider myself a better than average tournament player, I should not have called off all my chips with just top-pair top-kicker this early in the game.

I am more conflicted about my pre-flop play. Obviously, if I'd made a reasonable raise pre-flop (say to T100), the SB would have been out of there and I would either have taken it down right there or on the flop. There is the "don't raise when you can't stand a re-raise" school of thought, but frankly, if I'm up against AK or a big pocket pair, I'd just as soon get out of the way now, and someone bluff re-raising when I raise 2 limpers seems unlikely (and if they do it, my hat is off to them and I'll get 'em when I raise with QQ-AA).

So, I guess the real question is, ATs on the button, 2 limpers, what is your play?

Thanks in advance

Chris

[Justaloser]

I would have bet 100 preflop, and 300 on the flop.

You've got position and the preflop raise shows strength. If the SB would call both, then he's bad enough to earn the pot. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif It would be a lot harder for him to justify calling preflop and even more when you're representing Top pair w/ a better kicker than him or an over pair.

I won't beat you up about the call on the turn, you know better. Just don't do it again! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[cferejohn]

I'm sure he would have folded to a pre-flop raise. He hadn't been playing insane up until then. If my hand had been AJ or better, I definitely would have raised pre-flop. Something about the 'pretty goodness' of AT just makes me play strangely. Thanks for the response.

Chris

[DaNoob]

When I play ATs, or similar decent-but-not-great hands in the early stages of a tourney, I'm looking for flush, straight, or two pair to really bang on the hand. When I hit TPTK in the early rounds of a tourney, I play much more cautiously than I would in later rounds, since it's much harder to judge what people will call with PF. Just last night, I got smoked calling an all-in re-raise with TPTK against a set of 9s.

At the same time, stealing less than T100 in blinds may or may not be worth the effort in the first place. So, if it were me, in that hand, I would play PF just like you did.

Post-flop, I would bet the pot on the turn (or 2/3 of it, as the tourney pros on 2+2 recommend), then start to wonder why the people who are still around ARE still around. Make another feeler bet of T100 or T200 on the Turn, and if you get re-raised all-in, I'd let this one go. If they call, they are probably on the draw and you can bet/fold on the river if the scare card hits.

You're too good to be risking your entire stack on TT with top kicker against an unknown range of hands (like T6).

That's my 2 cents, but probably not the right 2 cents..

[sam h]

Raising preflop is my default play there. Even though your hand isn't that strong and you don't stand to win that many chips if everybody folds, you're getting chips into the pot with position and a hand that still may dominate the holdings of many weak tourney limpers. To amass a big stack you have to get involved sometimes with less than grade A holdings and this a pretty good spot.

That said, you don't give up that much by calling. Not nearly as much as you did by calling the turn all-in. Not that many players online are going to make this move without having you beat.

[Ed S.]

I think you bet more money on the flop. If it's pot limit then all you can do is max the pot like you did. If it was no limit you need to raise like 3-7 times the pot. If you do that the 10-6 off suit may not call. Then again he may call. But giving it to him realitively cheaply early on he will usually call that most of the time. Your pre-flop action was fine here. The only thing I can see you doing is betting more here. Because you don't want the over cards to call to catch their card. You want to win pots in NL tournies and with this situation you need to make every effort to take them down. Now granted you will do this and there will be times you lose the pot and or will have to fold a good hand. But don't send yourself packing too soon. Make sure you put ever effort in, in trying to get that pot before you are forced to give up on it.

Ed S.

[cferejohn]

You would bet 700 here? To win a 100 chip pot? I don't really see the benefit. Seems to me like the definition of 'only better hands will call'. If he raises all-in I feel committed. I'll concede that perhaps a 150-200 bet on the flop might have been a better idea with such a vunerable hand, but I really dislike massively overbetting the pot unless I am in a situation where my stack size dictates that I may as well go all in (i.e. I have less than 3 times the pot). The risk/reward ratio is just bad.

However, I agree with most that raising to 100 pre-flop would have been a better idea. I risk the same number of chips as I did with the flop bet, and I win nearly as many if everyone folds (less 10 because the SB won't get the chance to complete).

[Justaloser]

I hope he meant 3-7xBB.

Overbetting the pot like that often means a bluff (I'm putting in sooo much money, you shouldn't call me).

Course that does depend on the player.