Gambler's anonymous

Would it be ethical for a sucessful poker player to go to G.A. iF he won at poker but lost at the tables compulsively?
One of rules at G.A. is no form of gambling at all?
G.G.

[threeonefour]

i'm sure they'd love to have you. what would make it unethical?

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be ethical for a sucessful poker player to go to G.A. iF he won at poker but lost at the tables compulsively?
One of rules at G.A. is no form of gambling at all?
G.G.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let me ask you this. Do you think you have a problem?

Rather than ask us degenerates, go to a meeting and talk to them. You're going to get a lot better info there than here, IMO.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TJ, is that you?

[Victor]

most in ga fail to understand gambling theory and expectation value. so, they would not be able comprehend your alleged edge and thus would certainly not accept your poker playing.

[ QUOTE ]
most in ga fail to understand gambling theory and expectation value. so, they would not be able comprehend your alleged edge and thus would certainly not accept your poker playing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Serious question: How do you know this? I'm not disputing you.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most in ga fail to understand gambling theory and expectation value. so, they would not be able comprehend your alleged edge and thus would certainly not accept your poker playing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Serious question: How do you know this? I'm not disputing you.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i dont know it for sure.

however, the common public perception of poker is that no one has an edge and will go broke eventually. this is reiterated in many articles in newspapers, even by alleged gambling experts.

now, the nature of support groups is that a little bit is too much for addicts. for alcoholics and druggies, the group will not tolerate any use. in their eyes, it is impossible for one to have a beer at dinner.

so, i can only presume that ga has the same perspectives.

Understand your point.

ty

[freehat]

Listen to Victor at GA they don't want any forms of gambling at all, so they would not approve of your poker playing and would not want you to attend their meetings evn if you planned on continuing playing poker but stopped playing the table games.

as a representive from ga i bet you $5 your local group lets you in....

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


now, the nature of support groups is that a little bit is too much for addicts. for alcoholics and druggies, the group will not tolerate any use. in their eyes, it is impossible for one to have a beer at dinner.


[/ QUOTE ]

A full-blown alcoholic should not have a beer a dinner if s/he is serious about sobriety.

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
as a representive from ga i bet you $5 your local group lets you in....

[/ QUOTE ]

I will bet $10 that he doesnt go.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
A full-blown alcoholic should not have a beer a dinner if s/he is serious about sobriety.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more to the point. I'm really not bothered by what misconceptions GA might have about poker.

More interestingly, is it be possible for a winning poker player with a gambling problem to kick the bad habits whilst continuing with poker?

[thehotspur]

I don't think that GA would be the best place for you to go with the desire to only give up one form of gambling. They tend to be quite extreme in their view (incorrect from a psychological point of view)that "addicts" cannot ever engage in the activity in a moderate fashion. If they are your only option or you cannot afford to go elsewhere then just go anyway. Personally I would advise giving poker a break while you kick the tables habit anyway though, kicking any addiction is much harder when you stay in an environment where you are surrounded by it. Good luck to you.

[mike l.]

ive thought many times about going. but i only play poker, maybe a little sports, almost all poker.

so i imagined going and then standing up and saying "im mike and im a gambling addict. ive been clean for 2 days. gambling has ruined my life. last year i won only $75,000 (or whatever) playing poker. please help me."

somehow i just dont think that would go over too well.

[Peter666]

The real question is: how to get all the participants at the meeting into your home poker game?

[Bascule]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that GA would be the best place for you to go with the desire to only give up one form of gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mother counsels people with alcohol problems. She disagrees with the AA approach of trying to stop *all* alcohol consumption. I would guess the same is true for gambling, ie the OP could get help from a non-GA source that would help with his non-poker gambling problems, acknowledging that poker is not a problem for him.

[bigfishead]

Dear Green Gambler,

Asside from the posts by "threonefour", "dustybottoms", "nut4dawgs", and "thehotspur", the posters in this thread are full of shiit. Total ignorant idiots would be a simple definition.

Allow me to elaborate on a few things from personal experience.

12 step "groups" have guidlines called "12 traditions" by which they operate so to speak. "The only requirement for GA membership is a desire to stop gambling." These principles are taken from the 12 traditions of AA, replacing GA for AA or whatever the aplicable 12 step program name is.

Nowhere does it say if you go play poker we're gonna kick you out.

Victor states: [ QUOTE ]
most in ga fail to understand gambling theory and expectation value. so, they would not be able comprehend your alleged edge and thus would certainly not accept your poker playing.


also he says; the group will not tolerate any use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust that there are many that understand gambling theory, expectation value, and can tell you the precise payback and EV% and hourly rate of many of the most popular video poker games with 99-100+% paybacks. As well, many know the math of every damn draw in poker far better than most 2+2ers.
Knowledge of these things does not mean one is NOT a compulsive gambler.

as for the 2nd statement of his. Refer to the "tradition", a "desire".

Freehat states: [ QUOTE ]
Listen to Victor at GA they don't want any forms of gambling at all, so they would not approve of your poker playing and would not want you to attend their meetings evn if you planned on continuing playing poker but stopped playing the table games.



[/ QUOTE ] Again talking crap. They would never NOT want you to attend their meetings. Refer to traditions, "desire". You think drunks and dope fiends get kicked out of AA or NA because the got loaded or had a drink? If that were the case it's doubtful more than 10% of their respective memberships would EVER have gotten sober.

Bascule writes; [ QUOTE ]
My mother counsels people with alcohol problems. She disagrees with the AA approach of trying to stop *all* alcohol consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, it's hard to agree with the success of 2 million+ sober and recovering alcoholics and drug addicts.

I suggest to you there are no "rules" GG, as you mention in your initial post. If you feel like you have a problem go check them out. Most of all be honest with yourself and those that you meet there. Trust that you are not unique in any way shape or form and they have "been there, done that" no matter what your story is.

It is not for us here to say whether you are a compulsive gambler. Thats for you to decide. You would not be the first successful poker player that was however. There are many broke successful poker players that are most certainly compulsive gamblers. Just look around the sports books and table games of any major tournament. Many are firing hard at negative expectation games.

I wish you the best in your efforts to make a change.

if you are having adverse consequences due to your gambling, then go to a meeting. If you are not, then don't.

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Green Gambler,

Asside from the posts by "threonefour", "dustybottoms", "nut4dawgs", and "thehotspur", the posters in this thread are full of shiit. Total ignorant idiots would be a simple definition.

[/ QUOTE ]

bite me?

[youtalkfunny]

"Is it sinful to gamble, or merely to lose? I'll come back when I'm broke."--Sky Masterson, played by Marlon Brando, Guys and Dolls

I'm a fulltime poker player.

I never went to any meetings, but I've read GA literature, and it is 100% responsible for curing me of my psychological need to blow money at -EV games.

Ironically, I purchased this literature at The Gamblers Book Store in Vegas (11th and Charleston).

I think anyone who compulsively loses their money could benefit from their help. By "compulsively", I mean, you're just not happy until you've lost it all. You can't sleep after a win, but sleep like a baby after losing it all.

That's the way I was. A $2 booklet put out by GA explained to me what was going on in my subconscious to drive that need to blow my money gambling, and once I understood it, that self-destructive drive went away.

Shoot me a PM sometime, if you need anything, or to let me know how you do.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dear Green Gambler,

Asside from the posts by "threonefour", "dustybottoms", "nut4dawgs", and "thehotspur", the posters in this thread are full of shiit. Total ignorant idiots would be a simple definition.

[/ QUOTE ]

bite me?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey now, i like this guy... even if he does need to work on his spelling /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[drewjustdrew]

Is GA opposed to health/auto/property insurance? How about extended warranties? These are all -EV bets if you only consider the gamble, which is what it sounds like.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


now, the nature of support groups is that a little bit is too much for addicts. for alcoholics and druggies, the group will not tolerate any use. in their eyes, it is impossible for one to have a beer at dinner.


[/ QUOTE ]

A full-blown alcoholic should not have a beer a dinner if s/he is serious about sobriety.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true but aa would consider most ppl alcoholics, especially college students.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
also he says; the group will not tolerate any use.


[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension bc this is refering to alcoholics anonymous. and i am 100% certain it is true.

still, i will maintain that if you show up at ga they will not tolerate your poker playing. these sort of support groups have circular reasoning. since you are showing up at ga you are a gambling addict. therefore you cannot engage in gambling. if you dont agree you are in denial. after all, you are at ga.

at least this is how aa is.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also he says; the group will not tolerate any use.


[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension bc this is refering to alcoholics anonymous. and i am 100% certain it is true.

still, i will maintain that if you show up at ga they will not tolerate your poker playing. these sort of support groups have circular reasoning. since you are showing up at ga you are a gambling addict. therefore you cannot engage in gambling. if you dont agree you are in denial. after all, you are at ga.

at least this is how aa is.

[/ QUOTE ]
The aa idea is that if you can drink socially, good for you. If it's not causing you problems, then do what you want to.

But if alcohol is causing you problems, and you want to stop drinking, there is a way. That is the program of aa.

now subsistitute gambling for drinking.

[ QUOTE ]
The aa idea is that if you can drink socially, good for you. If it's not causing you problems, then do what you want to.

But if alcohol is causing you problems, and you want to stop drinking, there is a way. That is the program of aa.

now subsistitute gambling for drinking.

[/ QUOTE ]


These are words of a person who knows of what he writes.

12-step programs and support groups are for those who have admitted
to themselves they have a problem. They look for help.

I've been reading this thread and don't remember noticing anyone
posting a link to GA. Rather than speculate, investigate.

<ul type="square"> Gamblers Anonymous FAQ (http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/qna.html) [/list]

Addictive behaviour is just that. Behaviour that's addictive. Folks
get addicted to alcohol, gambling and even sex. Their addictions and
their actions resulting from their addiction cause them and those in
their lives, problems. It's a serious condition.

So, if you have, or even think you may have, a problem, take care of
yourself. Look for help. It's very +EV.

To those who've found time to make jokes, STFU.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Is GA opposed to health/auto/property insurance?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I couldn't pay my rent or feed my children because I blew all my money on needless insurance, somebody would care, and offer to help.

Please, everyone, don't ask me GA's opinion of anything. These 12-step programs use the word "God" in about half the steps, which I can't get in step with. I had very simple psychological issues driving my compulsion, which were solved by reading a booklet. That's the entire extent of my relationship with GA.

[drewjustdrew]

It was really more of a rhetorical question. I seriously doubt GA considers insurance gambling, though it is.

[Victor]

go into aa and describe to them your behaviour for much of college. unless you rarely drank, you will be deemed an alcoholic. if you deny it, well, you are in denial.

i have been in the system.

I was in Alanon for quite a while and found meetings I liked and meetings I didn't. So sometimes shopping around for a meeting that suits you helps alot. One of the first and best catch phrases I ever heard was "take what you can use and leave the rest".

As far as having trouble with the "God" part as mentioned in one post, there is wide latitude in that observation which is part of why the program is so successful. Some people consider it to mean "Good Orderly Direction".

I think a person is blessed to have some inkling of a potential problem and considering steps to avert it before hitting bottom. I wish I had been that honest with myself and strong enough to do something about it early on.

Hope this adds something to the thread...

[ QUOTE ]

i have been in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't deny that it's likely you got the reception you describe.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be ethical for a sucessful poker player to go to G.A. iF he won at poker but lost at the tables compulsively?
One of rules at G.A. is no form of gambling at all?
G.G.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great idea. I bet their all jonesing for some action. You could clean up.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

It would be unwise for someone with Pathological Gambling (PG) to engage in any gambling of any type. I often see alcoholics or drug users who want to learn to use in moderation, rather than be entirely abstinent. I've seen this work only twice in 17+ years of practice.

I suspect that attendees of GA would strongly encourage anyone with PG to avoid all types of wagering, even those that are +EV (and I would agree with them).

[MCS]

Here's my beef with AA. In the words of my girlfriend, "You can only attend AA and do the steps if you're at least an agnostic."

[thehotspur]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be unwise for someone with Pathological Gambling (PG) to engage in any gambling of any type. I often see alcoholics or drug users who want to learn to use in moderation, rather than be entirely abstinent. I've seen this work only twice in 17+ years of practice.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a psychologist who's area of expertise is addiction, particulary gambling addiction, and even more particularly online poker addiction.

The truth is that many many people go from being addicted to something to moderate and "normal" use, be it alcohol, drugs, or forms of gambling. If you have only seen it twice in 17 years then it is because you just don't see the people who return to moderate use because they no longer go to you with a problem, or you are being disingenuous.

I believe in giving people the full facts on these matters, not promoting any spiritually based abstinence philosophy or ludicrously outdated medical disease theory of addiction.

The fellowships such as AA or GA are NOT permissive of intentioned use as their anachronistic view of addiction (which is unchanged despite decades of research which contradicts it) explicity precludes the possibility of moderate usage. This harmful view is why many addicts have 1 slip and they think "oh God that's it I've fallen off the wagon, I know an addict can't have just 1 or 2 drinks so I have no choice but to binge now"

If any of you or anyone you know may have a gambling problem then by all means use GA as a 1st stop for info but if there are alternatives then I would suggest that for many gamblers, particularly poker players choosing an option other than GA may be more suitable for you. But if GA are the only show in town then I would recommend them over nothing.

Here are some links which may be useful to you or others, feel free to PM me for any further information:
http://www.basisonline.org/toolkits/FirstStepSite/main.htm
http://www.gamblingtherapy.org/
http://www.ncpgambling.org/about_problem/
http://www.responsiblegambling.org/

And be wary about what you read, in America many of the organisations are in the pocket of the gaming industry (eg Harvard's gambling centre) or actually set up by it.

[Easy E]

I don't know about ethical, but it sounds as if you can use the help.

[lastsamurai]

Well...I guess the best way you could compare playing poker for a living is if you day trade stocks....I mean i know alot of people who got cracked in the stock market because they were degenerate gamblers...stories pre summer of 2000 where i heard about investors taking our second mortgages on their vacation homes to get into that hot IPO.

Most of the public still feel poker is a game of luck rather than skill...but the skill players (stocks and poker) know different in the long run..