Flopped nuts. Train wreck ensues. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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mowz

11-14-2005, 06:17 PM

It is an ugly, loathsome hand yet I cannot fold away. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Reads:
UTG+2 46/6/.46 over 54 hands
MP1 54/10/1.16 over 54 hands
MP3 50/13/1 over 53 hands
SB 31/7/1.34 over 350 hands
BB 17/10/2.6 over 150 hands

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

brettbrettr

11-14-2005, 06:19 PM

I"m getting jiggy on the flop here, like, all the time.

If anything, in my case I should have cold called then gotten jiggy on the turn. IN your case, once the guy cold calls before you act, I see no reason not to three bet. In retrospect, I should have slowplayed this flop, I think.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, CO calls $31.50 (All-In), Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

River: (20.47 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.47 BB

jason_t

11-14-2005, 06:20 PM

3-bet the flop.

uw_madtown

11-14-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hobbsmann

11-14-2005, 06:23 PM

Slow playing this flop sucks. Enough people clearly like their hands enough that you are missing out on way too much value by getting sneaky here. Also, don't worry about facing sb and bb with 3 cold as if they were going to call two cold they will probably also call 3 cold.

mowz

11-14-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, don't worry about facing sb and bb with 3 cold as if they were going to call two cold they will probably also call 3 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the only reason I would slowplay. I figure if I can get a reraise on the turn, they will have to think a lot harder about how much they like their draws with one card to come. I'm not trying to get sneaky, rubbing my hands together all Mr. Burns style, I'm thinking about how to win this since there are 69 ways I can get 69ed by the end.

Bret how is your hand different than mine?

11-14-2005, 06:29 PM

Hi mowz-

I know you're probably looking for a verbal beating to dissuade you from doing this. I don't have the heart to berate you; we all want to make sure SB, BB and UTG+1 stay in this hand.

But you need to 3-bet the flop. Consider: 5 cards can put a better straight on the board. 8 cards can pair the board. 9 cards can put the flush on the board. And two cards (T /images/graemlins/club.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif) are complete nightmares. I count 22 cards that potentially dry up your ability to raise indefinitely. Raise the flop, while you still can.

I'm fine with the rest of the hand. MP1 sure is saying he's got a monster - either that or he's got nothing; he was the last person to put in a raise on the flop yet he thinks a c/r on the turn is going to work? After getting raised I call down and expect to be good at least 10 percent of the time here. If the river doesn't come out a club I'm tempted to raise/fold, but that might be incorrect.

brettbrettr

11-14-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bred how is your hand different than mine?

[/ QUOTE ]

from me to callmedonnie:

[ QUOTE ]
brettbrettr: slowplaying his hand on thatb board after people have cold called sucks
brettbrettr: in my hand, you could argue with not 3bettting becasue I'm facing people with three cold
brettbrettr: but on his, he's facing one player with 2 bets, and two with one

[/ QUOTE ]

11-14-2005, 06:31 PM

In the second hand, there's no need to worry about a higher straight being put out there.

hobbsmann

11-14-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, don't worry about facing sb and bb with 3 cold as if they were going to call two cold they will probably also call 3 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the only reason I would slowplay. I figure if I can get a reraise on the turn, they will have to think a lot harder about how much they like their draws with one card to come. I'm not trying to get sneaky, rubbing my hands together all Mr. Burns style, I'm thinking about how to win this since there are 69 ways I can get 69ed by the end.

Bret how is your hand different than mine?

[/ QUOTE ]
flush draws are never folding at any point on the flop or turn. Everything doesn't have to be about protecting your hand there is a thing called value betting and a great example of it would be if you 3-bet this flop.

silkyslim

11-14-2005, 06:37 PM

i want to 3 bet the flop. Even if you fold people they may have /images/graemlins/club.gif's, cards to split with you, and gutshots to beat you . You may also get a lot of action from a big yet worse hand.

mowz

11-14-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
there is a thing called value betting and a great example of it would be if you 3-bet this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Okay you all have convinced me. In a multiway pot like that I was trying to balance juicing the pot with winning the hand, and it looks like 3-betting the flop would have been the better decision. Thanks for the awesome, timely responses.

Bret okay yeah but I am also facing two others with 3 cold if I 3-bet it, so I only have one less person to face with 3 bets and one more person with two bets. The difference between our two hands is pretty close. Don't you think you could make the same case for your hand that was made for mine? I.E I dig your flop raise as a value bet.

Funky results in white below:


UTG+2 has Td 7s (straight, jack high).
MP1 has 8s Ac (three of a kind, eights).
MP3 has 6c 7c (flush, jack high).
Hero has Th Qc (straight, queen high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 24 BB.

brettbrettr

11-14-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think you could make the same case for your hand that was made for mine? I.E I dig your flop raise as a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I don't like slowplaying either hand. I was being results oriented as from tiome to time I am wont to do.

But whoever said that I had the nut straight and you didn't said a lot. Its more than the bets.

Carmine

11-14-2005, 07:09 PM

What nobody 3-bets the turn either especially after OP fails to define his hand on the flop?

11-14-2005, 08:32 PM

I like the call on the flop, I don't like the bet/call on the turn. I would have 3-bet to see if he boated up. If he just calls, I raise the river. If he caps, I go into call down mode.