2/4 straight draw hand, did i take it too far?

[TheSalche]

I'm thinking the answer is yes before I even post this, but some opinions on streets before 6th would be appreciated.

I've played with villain for a while, he seems pretty solid of a player. His 5th street check means to me he very likely has a pair of Aces or queens, and he's checking because he's afraid of the fact that two players have been calling him.

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

4th Street - (2.88 SB)

Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls

5th Street - (2.94 BB)

Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks

6th Street - (2.94 BB)

Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds

River - (4.94 BB)

Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___bets

Total pot: (4.94 BB)

[lstream]

Third is a clear fold. Chasing hands like this will make you popular but poor.

Easy fold on 3rd, but if you're gonna go for it, fold 4th if you don't catch the 9.

[Roland]

Interesting read. Are you sure? There are not that many rocks around.
The 3rd street call is fine, but you should probably fold on 4th. Against an unknown player you can call 6th because people don’t usually check aces on 5th so he figures to have two pairs at best. Since you think he has aces up, however, you should fold. The pot is small and you only have 6 outs. There are 35 unseen cards, so you need like 6:1 to call, but you’re only getting 4:1.

As for third street, given that his strt cards are live, given that 2 aces are out, given that many hearts are out and given that it is not raised, it seems worthwhile to take a peak for a dollar. Man, I've taken peaks for much more than that.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
The 3rd street call is fine

[/ QUOTE ]

No way.

This is a big BI game. Limping suxs

[Roland]

I don’t know Jon. I’m usually very much opposed to these speculative hands, and I might even fold this one while 4-tabling, but I really don’t think it’s a mistake to call here, even in this structure.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t know Jon. I’m usually very much opposed to these speculative hands, and I might even fold this one while 4-tabling, but I really don’t think it’s a mistake to call here, even in this structure.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ug, ok, maybe it doesn't completely reak on 3rd. But I think you have to catch a 9/T/J to continue past 4th (assuming there is a bet).

[Roland]

Agreed.

[PoorLawyer]

Im going to go in the fold 3rd camp here. I can see a case for the limp if you had a two suited cards, but even then I can't imagine you make much if any money with this starting hand in the long run.

[preiserone]

I like the call on third. At this limit you can often get to 5th street for just the bring-in. chasing isn't so bad if you are at a passive table like alot of the 2/4 tables are.

I most likely fold on 4th

Given that all the 9s are live, and its very unlikely to be raised behind you, calling a small bet to make a gutshot here seems to be a smaller mistake than playing the hand to start with. I think it could even be correct to call 4th.

[TheSalche]

after taking a look back, the call on 3rd was somewhat loose, but sklanksy is for calling 3rd with hands like this at looser tables ... i think i would have had more of a case for continuing past 4th if i had caught a queen, certainly so if i had caught a nine ... this hand is obviously unplayable if even 1 nine is dead

[benwood]

For a good analysis of this particular 3rd st situation, see the old Super System, bottom of pg 144 & TOP OF PG 145.

[Andy B]

If you're going to fold on fourth, you should probably fold on third.

[Andy B]

The call on third street is OK, but folding is probably better. Straight draws kinda suck anyway, and with the gap, this one sucks more than usual. When you limp in with a dog like this one, you're relying on implied odds, but those are cut down because the bring-in is too big.

I don't see why a check on fifth street points to this guy having Aces or Queens. I think it points to his having nothing, or perhaps to his being clueless. Personally, I'd be betting into those boards with AQx whatever I had underneath.

If you really thought he had Queens or better, you should have folded on sixth street. You need either a Jack or a Nine to beat him, and neither of those is a lock by any means. I would have folded on sixth, I think, but if I had called, I would have called the river unimproved as well. Of course, calling is what I do best.

[CarlosChadha]

I agree with everything Roland said in his first post, and the last 2 paragraphs of Andy's post. 3rd is a marginal but good call IF you can lay down a bad gut shot or pair later in the hand, otherwise it gets you into a lot of trouble (as you can see).

You mentioned had you caught a Q on 4th a call would have been okay...again true but very marginal and it can swing from +EV if you read well and play well later in the hand to grossly -EV if you don't.

Player normally don't get scared on 5th when they have a big pair...if anything a check means he is slowplaying his 2 pair/trips or just is weak.

On 6th it is hard to tell were you are at, and since the pot is very small you should fold. A good way to avoid falling for slowplays (which this may be) is to not call after a slight improvement on 6th when you wouldn't have called on 5th. This same principle applies on any st. where your opponent makes a suspect check with a strong board and then a "suprise" bet on the next st....it takes dicsapline but will save you a lot of money!

[Oblivious]

How about raising 6th, then checking behind on the end if you dont improve?

I also advocate folding 3rd... but might call with (8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif since youre closing the action.

[chessforlife]

yes.