OT: when is best of it not good enough?

Seen a lot of hands lately where the guy ahead gets beat by a draw. Duh. poker. But, are there times when it's not worth it (calling allin) even with the lead?

For an example, you raise black AA, and get one caller. Flop comes A34 red and he leads allin (or re-raises you all in).

Sure, he's drawing to straight/flush or both. Heck, even assume you can see his cards face up and you *know* that's the case. Is this always a call, and if you lose, oh well? If it's early in a tournament and stacks are similar, but you're covered on this hand? What if it's at the bubble, and you're middle stack of 4 but covered by the raiser? Some other situation that changes the answer? Yeah, it's +EV, but does that always settle it in a tournament situation?

Okay, take away the A on the flop, and with it your own boat draws. Maybe 568 red. Does that change things?

I'm mainly talking about a flop or maybe turn decision, not a preflop one. There are numerous other examples (and some where I was on the drawing side) but I am curious about folks' thoughts if there's ever a time to drop a leading hand when you know the guy's drawing to beat you.

Thanks! -matt

[durron597]

If you have an edge, the stacks must be really bizarre & on the bubble for you to turn it down. If I have AA and my opponent has 5s6s on a As 3h 4s board I have no problem going allin.

[skipperbob]

"IF" you're ahead & have the opportunity to put all your chips in, then you must take that opportunity.

If your opponent has 2 draws to 12 outs that beat you, then your not really ahead...it's a coinflip....Do you want to call all your chips to a coinflip?...Go Ahead Punk! Make My Day /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Suppose it is the first hand of a SNG and you're in the BB with AA. It is folded around to the SB who shows you his AA and goes all in. Do you call? You have the exact same chance of doubling up as you do of busting, but I don't think you make the call. Doubling your stack (and eliminating one player) won't double your equity (will it?) while losing the all-in obviously takes away all your equity.

I imagine it is often best to pass up real coin flips early in a SNG, even if you've already got a few chips in the pot so that you would be getting favorable odds. This is probably especially true if you consider yourself one of the better players at the table (as we all do).

[gildwulf]

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Suppose it is the first hand of a SNG and you're in the BB with AA. It is folded around to the SB who shows you his AA and goes all in. Do you call? You have the exact same chance of doubling up as you do of busting, but I don't think you make the call. Doubling your stack (and eliminating one player) won't double your equity (will it?) while losing the all-in obviously takes away all your equity.

I imagine it is often best to pass up real coin flips early in a SNG, even if you've already got a few chips in the pot so that you would be getting favorable odds. This is probably especially true if you consider yourself one of the better players at the table (as we all do).

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I'm confused...how is AA vs AA a coinflip?

[Big Limpin']

Theres the hypothetical "knowing" your opponents hand, and theres the reality that you can only give him the highest probability of having that hand.

So in a real tournament situation, you may be presented with "this is likely a race with him, but maybe not". Stacking-off in poker is often from a great made hand versus a great drawing hand. So in your AAA vs flush/str8 draw, if he has the draw, its race-y, but any other hand (any made hand) you crush.

So, what i mean is, if you were 100% sure you were in a close to 50/50 proposition, yeah, you should drop alot of the hands in a tourney, assuming the pot doesnt lay much price. But you wont ever be 100% sure, and usually less than 90%. So if you beat his OTHER probable holdings, then you really have the best of it and *should not* fold.

[ QUOTE ]
"IF" you're ahead & have the opportunity to put all your chips in, then you must take that opportunity.

If your opponent has 2 draws to 12 outs that beat you, then your not really ahead...it's a coinflip....Do you want to call all your chips to a coinflip?...Go Ahead Punk! Make My Day /images/graemlins/blush.gif

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Did sfb just give a strategy post??!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mr_J]

"If your opponent has 2 draws to 12 outs that beat you, then your not really ahead...it's a coinflip...."

Not if we're talking about the set here, since we'll fill up 20% of the time.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose it is the first hand of a SNG and you're in the BB with AA. It is folded around to the SB who shows you his AA and goes all in. Do you call? You have the exact same chance of doubling up as you do of busting, but I don't think you make the call. Doubling your stack (and eliminating one player) won't double your equity (will it?) while losing the all-in obviously takes away all your equity.

I imagine it is often best to pass up real coin flips early in a SNG, even if you've already got a few chips in the pot so that you would be getting favorable odds. This is probably especially true if you consider yourself one of the better players at the table (as we all do).

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I would call and ask the dealer to run it twice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"IF" you're ahead & have the opportunity to put all your chips in, then you must take that opportunity.

If your opponent has 2 draws to 12 outs that beat you, then your not really ahead...it's a coinflip....Do you want to call all your chips to a coinflip?...Go Ahead Punk! Make My Day /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did sfb just give a strategy post??!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It was Dark...I was Drunk...I'm Sorry /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nicholasp27]

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I'm confused...how is AA vs AA a coinflip?

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the 99% of the times that u don't tie, you are 50/50 to be the one that gets the nut flush /images/graemlins/grin.gif