Middle Pair concerns

[Nikademus]

So, one of the holes in my game is aggession. I think this is the type of situation where I tighten up because I'm not sure what to do.

SB - 13%/6% AF 2.14 after 285 hands - likely the best (solid) player at the table
UTG+1 - 17%/2% AF 1.14 after 89 hands - Tight-passive, but maybe not catching any real cards.
EP - 72%/1% AF 0.77 after 107 hands - Complete fish, will show anything down.


PokerRoom 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, EP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, EP calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, EP calls.

River: (9 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, Hero ...

I'm not sure what SB &amp; UTG+1 are hanging around for. From what I've seen, SB would have raised by now, and UTG+1 would have folded by now. EP doesn't worry me. So, I'm concerned about a Q, AJ, or a random 4. What's my line?

Thanks

[TheMainEvent]

I would raise PF if you're going to play at all. I would definately check the river with that many players calling me down.

Given your reads on the two better players, I'm happy to check behind here. SB will complete enough Q9s, QT hands to do this. If you were up against a bunch of EPish guys, then I think it's a valuebet.

[Koss]

I think busted draws fold and strangely played better hands call. I can't imagine anyone not betting a queen on that flop. Weak Q's might check/call. Other jacks would likely do the same. Still, I think I bet it. If the river had completed any logical draw this would be an easy check behind. Here, I think I bet expecting to take it down, and the few times I am called, I I will occasionally be shown a worse hand.

[Schwartzy61]

I bet. I can think of several hands that are calling down in this situation that you have beat and will call a bet on the river.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
So, one of the holes in my game is aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

As for the river, I think it is just too thin. I am checking behind.

[Nikademus]

[ QUOTE ]
First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may well be a problem for me. I don't have it handy, but I think SSHE says call, not raise with KJo in middle position.

Granted, I normally do raise when posters come in. However, I was familiar with this poster. Also, I was worried about those still to act. I'm in MP2. MP3 was Tight/Passive. The CO (poster) was a TAG, the Button was a TAG, and the SB was a TAG. I had taken a few bad beatings from being in front of the Button and SB, so I may have been playing gunshy here.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may well be a problem for me. I don't have it handy, but I think SSHE says call, not raise with KJo in middle position.


Granted, I normally do raise when posters come in. However, I was familiar with this poster. Also, I was worried about those still to act. I'm in MP2. MP3 was Tight/Passive. The CO (poster) was a TAG, the Button was a TAG, and the SB was a TAG. I had taken a few bad beatings from being in front of the Button and SB, so I may have been playing gunshy here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain that SSH says to call with KJo in any unraised pot. SSH's pre-flop charts say a lot of things which are wrong in some situations (as SSH itself points out). Playing with a poster definitely qualifies.

Limping this against SSHs mythical table of loose passives is fine (although so is raising, depending on the players). But you have a bunch of TAGs behind you; why do you want to play a multi-handed pot with TAGs with KJo? With that hand, I want to play small fields with passive opponents, not large fields with aggressive ones. If I am worried about the TAGs behind me, I may shy away from KJo in MP, but if I am playing it, I am raising it.

[Nikademus]

Thanks. This is the kind of advice that I'm looking for to correct my play. Worrying about their actions, I made the wrong pre-flop play.

For the record, I checked the river.

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Jh Td (two pair, jacks and fours).
UTG+1 has Kc Tc (one pair, fours).
EP has 2s 2d (two pair, fours and twos).
Hero has Kd Jc (two pair, jacks and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. </font>

[HouseCalls]

*grunch*
I like your hand as played. On the river you are up against two players in a situation where it is hard to know what they have because all they have done is call. I think the key here is reads. The more of a calling station the more likely you can bet for value (even against three players). When your opponents are trickier or more solid your bet has almost zero expectation. Against a solid player if you bet and he has nothing he folds. If you bet and he has a hand he calls and you lose. If he will call only when you lose the expectation is zero. Its even worse aginst a tricky player who might check raise and cost you two bets if you are behind.
In this case against two players with fairly solid stats I would check behind.
(if all opponents had stats like EP I might bet for value even against three players)

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
SB - 13%/6% AF 2.14 after 285 hands - likely the best (solid) player at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how solid he is if he's got a 13 VPIP. That usually means his postflop play is underdeveloped.

[DCWildcat]

Looks fine every street but PF, where I find a fold. Don't fret too much; this isn't a big error by any standard, but it's still one you don't want to make.

I like a river bet here.

Sorry allready posted my answer.

I agree, is you reasoning because so many have called. When would you call this hand, when only 1 called to our right.

[TennesseeKid]

grunch

Check. There are too many callers here and although some may be on busted draws of whatever kind, you aren't going to get them to fold now if you haven't already. Q/x is calling.

[brazilio]

With a poster in there and two limps this is an easy preflop raise. At a full ring game KJo is AKo pretty much, only with a lower kicker. I bet every street, definitely bet the river. 4 callers to the river just means they're that much less likely to actually have a Q.