View Full Version : Would you drop bottom set?
NL 10-20.
Me: 2k
SB: 2.5k, LAG, knows how to play and is extremely aggressive -- too aggressive for optimal $$$ though.
BB: 2k, seeming TAG. I had seen him show one hand so far, and the hand was as advertised. He seems to play reasonably tightly.
MP: 1k
I limped w/5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, MP called, MP+1 called. SB raised to 100, BB called, I called, MP called, MP+1 folded.
Flop: [J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]
SB bet pot (~$430). SB went all-in.
Call or fold here, and was it close?
thabadguy
11-14-2005, 01:41 PM
Joke right?
[ QUOTE ]
Joke right?
[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation your opponent probably has an overpair probably. You have to call because this is what you are looking for. I have folded sets before, but not in this type of situation.
HoldEmKillah
11-14-2005, 02:01 PM
Easy fold. Only play Royal Flushes against lags.
slickpoppa
11-14-2005, 02:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
SB bet pot (~$430). SB went all-in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont get it
I think you mean BB went all in. And no, I wouldn't fold.
SunOfBeach
11-14-2005, 02:29 PM
ah-ha. i get it now. it's YOU giving women that weak-tight stereotype.
Jonny
11-14-2005, 02:33 PM
who is the LAG?
everyone that is mocking jen should be shot and clearly hasnt read the archives.
kagame
11-14-2005, 02:55 PM
i think the problem here is its such a close decision
it ISNT an overpair bb is pushing with so its either a flush draw/pair/over combo or youre toast
considering the bbs image i actually might, i cant believe im saying this, lay this one down
also, the people posting thus far in this thread should not be allowed to procreate until they redeem themselves, no offense, but jen is old school and should get a little respect
[ QUOTE ]
i think the problem here is its such a close decision
it ISNT an overpair bb is pushing with so its either a flush draw/pair/over combo or youre toast
considering the bbs image i actually might, i cant believe im saying this, lay this one down
also, the people posting thus far in this thread should not be allowed to procreate until they redeem themselves, no offense, but jen is old school and should get a little respect
[/ QUOTE ]
getting respect for being "old school" is BS.
instacall/push.
kagame
11-14-2005, 03:12 PM
did you read the background info AT ALL?
[ QUOTE ]
did you read the background info AT ALL?
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nope, I dont need to. Giving her respect for old deeds is totally different from giving her respect for being old school
Ulysses
11-14-2005, 03:19 PM
Instacall, of course. I imagine you called and lost to 99?
kagame
11-14-2005, 03:26 PM
jens image should probably be taken into account also
el d im a little surprised?
theBruiser500
11-14-2005, 03:29 PM
without looking at the action, 55 on a 59J flush draw board? ALL IN. looking at the action, 5x BB raise preflop, ALL IN. PFR bets pot, pot is 900 and next guy raises 1100 more, ALL IN.
kagame
11-14-2005, 03:31 PM
fine then there is no room to ever fold bottom set unless you have 500bbs behind!
this is bs, ive KNOWN i was beat before with bottom set and i didnt lay it down because of this garbage concrete mindset
sorry im just not getting ANY reasoning behind hand ranges and why you need to put it in here
So SB raises preflop with a big pair. BB calls with JhTh/AhKh /6h7h. SB leads, BB pushes naturally, we instacall.
There is 6 possible ways to hold a higher set here, and we have JThh,AKhh,QThh,67hh,T8hh,87hh plus a bunch of other big draws. BB may even have AA, trapping SB. Why do you wanna fold here so bad?
Ulysses
11-14-2005, 03:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
jens image should probably be taken into account also
el d im a little surprised?
[/ QUOTE ]
Surprised at what? That I responded to jen's post? I agree it is a trivial situation that doesn't merit discussion. I just responded cuz I know her.
kagame
11-14-2005, 03:37 PM
this hand range doesnt accurately fit the bb's play style as given by jen, sure its possible but those arent the most likely hands, its either a set or a nut flush/combo draw imo
this seems similar to a way behind or slightly ahead situation
of course set over set is uncommon but this action is sick, and the player is TAG and plays straightforwardly, and jen is yet to act and has a tight as hell image
where am i wrong here?
this is straightforward play for a TAG w/ a big draw. I wouldnt give a limping tight player any respect either.
Mark1808
11-14-2005, 04:25 PM
It all comes down to what hands you think the TAG would call a $100 raise with from the LAG (and not reraise) and then come over the top all in with 2 players behind after the flop. Would he make this play with AJ? With a draw? The most likely holdings are JJ or 99, you are getting not quite 2 - 1, is he more than twice as likely to have a set than the other hands mentioned? Then fold, otherwise call. My experience with good TAG's and this flop and this many players is he has a set. Would he call a 5xBB raise in a multi way pot out of position with AJ? AKh is a possibility, but there is 1 way to make this hand versus 6 for JJ and 6 for 99.
"SB bet pot (~$430). SB went all-in."
Oops, I meant BB went all-in.
"who is the LAG?"
SB - not the guy who went all-in. Sorry, I wasn't clear in my original post.
"i think the problem here is its such a close decision"
I think so also, and given the 10 secs or so to think didn't help (the down-side of multi-tabling).
"it ISNT an overpair bb is pushing with so its either a flush draw/pair/over combo or youre toast"
Yes, I agree here too.
Thanks... tough crowd. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
"el d im a little surprised?"
Yes, he knows me. But he never agrees with me; check the archives...
[ QUOTE ]
"el d im a little surprised?"
Yes, he knows me. But he never agrees with me; check the archives...
[/ QUOTE ]
You never agree with Diablo? You must be pretty bad.
"Why do you wanna fold here so bad?"
I didn't.
"So SB raises preflop with a big pair. BB calls with JhTh/AhKh /6h7h. SB leads, BB pushes naturally, we instacall.
There is 6 possible ways to hold a higher set here, and we have JThh,AKhh,QThh,67hh,T8hh,87hh plus a bunch of other big draws. BB may even have AA, trapping SB."
I didn't think his preflop hand selection was that wide; nor did I think he would have flat-called preflop with what would have been an overpair in that spot.
Of course, I could be wrong, since I had only seen him play a limited number of hands.
Probably. But, I'm not hurting for $$$.
"The most likely holdings are JJ or 99, you are getting not quite 2 - 1, is he more than twice as likely to have a set than the other hands mentioned?"
He should have been significantly more than 2x as likely to have a draw in order for me to call since when he's drawing the odds would be similar, and when it's set-over-set, I'm a huge dog.
"My experience with good TAG's and this flop and this many players is he has a set."
Me too. But given my lack of extensive playing experience with this guy, I was wondering what others on this board thought.
okayplayer
11-14-2005, 07:50 PM
I would take a second to push the slider all the way to the right and click "All In". I very rarely drop a set w 100BBs in a PF raised pot. BB could be pushing a range of hands here: 89s, T9s, 67s, 78s, J9, and also JJ and 99.
Masquerade
11-14-2005, 07:54 PM
Against a pre-flop raiser I call instantly.
Mark1808
11-14-2005, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Against a pre-flop raiser I call instantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
But in this case the pre flop raiser bet the pot and the TAG caller went all in over the top! Would you then call with bottom set, given the texture of the flop and TAG's image who pushed? What hands does he flat call a 5XBB raise that he comes over the top all in on the flop?
The funny thing is I have called in this position before and I was third best as it was set over set over set!! Anything can happen, we are making decisions under uncertainty, but given the likelihood of various holdings and the pot odds I would say calling is a negative EV play in this scenario.
Ulysses
11-14-2005, 10:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Instacall, of course. I imagine you called and lost to 99?
[/ QUOTE ]
Were those the results?
kagame
11-16-2005, 11:18 AM
jen there is NOONE like you on this board anymore imo, i guess theres one playing that is more rocklike in the high stakes posters but even he is criticised for being easily readable and being pushed around by the agg UB players
btw, i play fairly loose and extremely aggressively, but i think being able to make huge laydowns, when its apparent im beat but im against folding a particular hand, more often would really help my game, so i try to think of things from that angle
i dont think the results matter here, the hand range and the odds are what matters
t_petrosian
11-16-2005, 11:31 AM
must be a joke. nothing to think about
t_petrosian
11-16-2005, 11:37 AM
Oh... I just read further. BB moved in... that changes things.
Call /images/graemlins/smile.gif
100 BB you're not deep enough really. Just call. This is why we have $30K rolls for $10/20 nl, not $4000
making huge laydowns as a extremely aggressive player is not a good idea
Mark1808
11-16-2005, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh... I just read further. BB moved in... that changes things.
Call /images/graemlins/smile.gif
100 BB you're not deep enough really. Just call. This is why we have $30K rolls for $10/20 nl, not $4000
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, that's why I still play $5 - $10.
kagame
11-18-2005, 07:45 PM
some of my opponents are so bad they almost literally tell me what their hands are with their idiotic min raising betting patterns or ridonkulous overbet all ins, depending, then i call with bottom/third set anyway
i guess im just trying to hit quads
bigt2k4
11-18-2005, 08:19 PM
BB might have KK or AA too
Matt Flynn
11-18-2005, 08:30 PM
Happily all in.
Just curious, Matt, not that I necessarily disagree, but what do you put them on? Especially the BB?
kagame
11-18-2005, 09:07 PM
very unlikely
matt a hand range please
Matt Flynn
11-18-2005, 09:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, Matt, not that I necessarily disagree, but what do you put them on? Especially the BB?
[/ QUOTE ]
Conveniently, even with four players it does not matter, because the pot is so big relative to the remaining stacks on the flop. The range of hands is broad but primarily includes overpairs, AJ, the nut flush draw and sets.
VanVeen
11-18-2005, 10:15 PM
I agree w/Matt and diablo. Given the size of the pot and the breadth of their hand ranges, this is an easy call. If villain can only have a set or a combo draw (and he occasionally folds preflop those hands which flopped combo draws) then say so (and we have nothing to discuss!). Otherwise it is an easy call.
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