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View Full Version : Folding Trip Aces on the Flop


11-14-2005, 11:40 AM
So, this table was really juicy. It had been loose passive pre-flop and LAG post-flop on the most part. MP3 was a complete donk. He called too often and made a lot of weak bets with less than the nuts. The button was an aggressive over-valuer. I had seen him shove with the underfull a couple of times, with varying degrees of success/luck.


MP3 ($89.80)
Button ($155.80)
Hero (SB) ($86)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $1, UTG+2 calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) checks, BB checks.

Flop: ($7) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $20</font>, Hero calls $16, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $83</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $150.80 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls $1.80 (All-In).

This fold seems like it should be automatic agaist decent players. One would have to have a good A, if not A-8 and the other has 8-8. I am at best a big dog and worst, drawing dead. Never a good situation!

Is the first flop call little more than spewing? Does anyone play this differently against these foes with those reads?

I got 4-way action with flopped quads on this table an orbit later. Play was that bad.

Tilt
11-14-2005, 11:50 AM
If your image isnt LAG and you lead at that flop, you should just lay down to the reraise. What can you be ahead of? Also, MP3s call is pretty scary on that board. He can't be really be drawing to anything.

DRKEVDC
11-14-2005, 11:57 AM
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I got 4-way action with flopped quads on this table an orbit later. Play was that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got the same at Interpoker last week, 4 way action on the flop, man was I laughing, until.....well I don't need to tell you what happened.

11-14-2005, 12:19 PM
My image was rather undefined at this point. It was only 2 orbits in. I had played 2 pots after the flop prior to this one, leading out in both cases.

The problem I had with MP3s call was that he had called down so many strange hands, such as top-two on a flushed board, or a naked big pocket pair K-K on a draw heavy board with an A. Basically, he was insane. When he called, I thought it was just as possible for that particular foe to have an A as it was for him to have K-K, Q-Q, or even an 8 and just be sticking around to see what happened on the turn. I was pretty sure that he was a NLHE player that hadnt adjusted to the whole nuts/near-nuts thing in Omaha yet.

thatpkrguy
11-14-2005, 02:06 PM
Why call the buttons raise?

You have to be beat at this point. Even if he has a tendancy to overvalue hands a little. There is no way his can be on a draw and obv has atleast an A if not better and most likely has your 7 outkicked if he does have thus making your a dog for sure if your not already drawing dead.

I think leading out was fine but calling the raise was quite iffy in my book...

But i also have a tendancy to nutpeddle lowerlimit games like this one.

josie_wales
11-14-2005, 03:16 PM
I def. lead out to define my hand (as you did).
I def. fold to the first raise. There is still action left behind you and what are you beating?

jw

josie_wales
11-14-2005, 03:18 PM
Chim,

I gotta ask -- you seem to have a decent omaha-head on your shoulders...

Was this really a tough decision for you? Even with your table read, do you really think that neither of them have an A-better kicker? Especially after like the 4th raise?

Is there more to this post/question?

Did they show down some crazy garbage and you wish you called? Don't be results oriented.

jw

11-14-2005, 03:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Chim,

I gotta ask -- you seem to have a decent omaha-head on your shoulders...

Was this really a tough decision for you? Even with your table read, do you really think that neither of them have an A-better kicker? Especially after like the 4th raise?

Is there more to this post/question?

Did they show down some crazy garbage and you wish you called? Don't be results oriented.

jw

[/ QUOTE ]

The fold after the big raises was very easy. I definitely should have folded to the first reraise, but I was 100% sure that the button had 8-8-x-x, which was why I called.

I won't get into whether I would have won or lost the hand had I called. MP3 had A-K-x-x and the button had 8-8-x-x as I thought. Between the 3 of us, none of our side cards matched. This meant that I had ~31% equity in the pot on the flop and was a favorite over the made hand, which given my sidecards, is about the best possible scenario. So, had the cards been face-up, it would have been a neutral EV gamble for me to call.

Obviously, I don't have x-ray vision and I easily could have been dominated, so folding to the initial raise was, by far, the best play.

I guess I was just wondering how much "risk" people take with a mediocre hand and a maniac driving the betting. The answer probably is: There are better spots.

11-15-2005, 03:18 PM
Okay if u call him when he raises, if u really dont believe him. But what do u think the button is betting into a raise and caller with? Too big of a chance that ur drawing dead (or close enough to it) to call. ONce again, even if the guy is insane, even insane players get cards. It does seem like a badbeat story here tho. I like the leadout, i might even be passive and just check and keep the pot small and see what develops, maybe hit ur boat and then get crippled. Here is the thing, when u call the button flop raise, what do u think u need to win? And if u miss (another high card or something like that) what do u do then out of position? Turn causes some problems unless u hit ur boat

11-15-2005, 07:03 PM
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Okay if u call him when he raises, if u really dont believe him. But what do u think the button is betting into a raise and caller with?

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I knew the button had 8-8-x-x. The foe was well known to me. With the nuts or a big A, he would have gone into slowroller mode. Thus, I was absolutely certain at the time that my read was correct.

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Too big of a chance that ur drawing dead (or close enough to it) to call. ONce again, even if the guy is insane, even insane players get cards.

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Very true. This is why I should have folded to the first raise. I acknowledge the mistake.

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It does seem like a badbeat story here tho.

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Actually, it was meant to be an entirely theoretical discussion of acceptable risk taking scenarios against a maniac. That probably did not come across very well in the original post and the fault can only lie with me on that one.

[ QUOTE ]
I like the leadout, i might even be passive and just check and keep the pot small and see what develops, maybe hit ur boat and then get crippled. Here is the thing, when u call the button flop raise, what do u think u need to win? And if u miss (another high card or something like that) what do u do then out of position? Turn causes some problems unless u hit ur boat

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, seeing a turn here would have been foolish. If I really believed that the maniac had nothing and the button had 8-8-x-x, i should have pushed after the button's raise. Heads up against the made hand, I would have had 40% equity and the dead money would have made it a slightly +EV gamble. However, I wasn't sure of my read on the maniac and thus made the foolish call and then found the easy fold when the action got back to me.

Marnixvdb
11-15-2005, 10:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I def. lead out to define my hand (as you did).
I def. fold to the first raise. There is still action left behind you and what are you beating?

jw

[/ QUOTE ]

What is there to define about your hand? You have trips aces (not quite a disguised hand), no kicker, no nut-redraw, vs a huge field of opponents. This is simply a check/fold, unless it gets checked around, you improve, and no substantial action happens on turn or river.

Marnix

flawless_victory
11-16-2005, 09:45 AM
there is no way u should be calling that first flop raise...

i would also check the flop, generally.