JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players [Archive]

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uw_madtown

11-14-2005, 04:00 AM

MP3 is 43/3/1 after 60 some hands. No more specific notes or read on him. IRC chat generated some disagreement on the turn so here goes.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)

BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero...

11-14-2005, 04:27 AM

Seems like a routine fold to me. It's very possible you're ahead of MP3, though I highly doubt you're ahead of the entire field. I use to play frequently at pacific, and constantly saw players calling down with top pair hands.

In my opinion, raising is the only other option. Though, I think they're a few critical factors that make this fold, rather than a raise:

1. Size of the field/likelihood you're behind.

2. You have no way to isolate villain's weird donk bet, due to the draw heavy board.

3. Anyone holding a pair of Qs is rarely folding, even when it's 2 back (this is particularly true on Pacific 2/4 tables).

W. Deranged

11-14-2005, 05:16 AM

I think this is a good spot for a fold. You're laying huge reverse implied odds here even when ahead, which is really not all that often after you bet the flop and get four customers.

It is very important to realize though that raising here is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than calling, particularly as often we can take a free showdown often, extract money from crub draws that'll pay now but not later, etc, etc, etc.

So: Folding > Raising >>> Calling.

B Dids

11-14-2005, 03:21 PM

mp3 bothers me a lot less than the legions of callers on the flop. I hate this spot, but I can't imagine anybody dies if you fold.

uw_madtown

11-14-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is very important to realize though that raising here is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than calling, particularly as often we can take a free showdown often, extract money from crub draws that'll pay now but not later, etc, etc, etc.

So: Folding > Raising >>> Calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a big part of why I posted the hand. I think my bouncing between 2/4 full and 3/6 6m made me want to raise here more than it should have, and in retrospect I think folding is correct after getting all those callers on the flop. I wanted to post to see if general option was fold > raise.

But also, I think it's good to point out just how bad calling is here, for all the reasons you mention. Specifically, I raised intending to fold to a 3-bet, and intending to check behind a huge amount of rivers.

Continued action:

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 folds, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 raises, 1 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero...

Ryan11

11-14-2005, 03:31 PM

Easy fold. The chance you are ahead of everyone is slim, the chance you'll be ahead on the river is even slimer. Most arn't going anywhere even for 2 bets. Good chance someone just made 2 pair and will re-raise behind you. Dump it.

peterchi

11-14-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This was a big part of why I posted the hand. I think my bouncing between 2/4 full and 3/6 6m made me want to raise here more than it should have, and in retrospect I think folding is correct after getting all those callers on the flop. I wanted to post to see if general option was fold > raise.

But also, I think it's good to point out just how bad calling is here, for all the reasons you mention. Specifically, I raised intending to fold to a 3-bet, and intending to check behind a huge amount of rivers.

Continued action:

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 folds, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 raises, 1 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, check behind looks good here. I can't see him calling with anything that you beat, nor folding a Q.

What small percentage of rivers would you actually bet, besides a J? Or is that it?

MCS

11-14-2005, 03:39 PM

Strikes me as a standard fold even in a big pot.

uw_madtown

11-14-2005, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What small percentage of rivers would you actually bet, besides a J? Or is that it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's precisely the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Maybe the J /images/graemlins/club.gif too but if I'm c/r I can't call, and I'm not sure any worse hands are calling a bet there. So probably just the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, maaaaaaaaaaaaybe a non-/images/graemlins/club.gif brick.

hobbsmann

11-14-2005, 03:45 PM

...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.

MrEngenic

11-14-2005, 04:19 PM

I would definately raise for a free showdown here. I don't like folding and I think raising is better than folding.

W. Deranged

11-14-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep Yep.

brettbrettr

11-14-2005, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep Yep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will,

From now I'm going to call you Mr Free Showdown, MrFSD for short. It is clearly your most advocated play. Not close.

Brett

W. Deranged

11-14-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep Yep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will,

From now I'm going to call you Mr Free Showdown, MrFSD for short. It is clearly your most advocated play. Not close.

Brett

[/ QUOTE ]

I talk up the free-showdown like whoa. I noticed that yesterday I responded to two or three consecutive posts advocating free showdown raises. It was largely coincidence, but, you are right that I really, really, really like them.

uw_madtown

11-14-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup yup.

I check behind and villian has AJo, MHIG.

I'm still torn on that turn raise, but folding was probably slightly better than raising.