A triplet of Ax hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jason_t

11-14-2005, 03:56 AM

Live at an amazing Commerce table.

The Button is the same in all these hands. He's very aggressive and is a reckless bluffer.

--- Hand #1 ---

Folded to the Button who open raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with black A7.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks, I check, Button bets, SB calls, I raise, Button 3-bets, SB caps, I call, Button calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, I bet

--- Hand #2 ---

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Everyone calls so it's nine to the flop.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif
Checked to the CO who bets, the Button raises, the SB folds and I 3-bet

--- Hand #3 ---

We're five-handed now. UTG folds, loose-passive CO limps, the Button limps, the SB completes and I check red A2 in the BB.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, I check, CO checks, Button bets, SB folds, I call, CO calls.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
Checked around.

River: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check, CO checks, Button bets, I call

shant

11-14-2005, 04:12 AM

Just how ugly and obnoxious are your opponents?

Hand 1- Why don't you fold the flop when it's two back to you?
Hand 2- I get this.
Hand 3- This is totally player dependent because some Commerce players do weird crap and some never bet there without a pair. I guess if he was ugly and obnoxious enough I'd call.

jason_t

11-14-2005, 04:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just how ugly and obnoxious are your opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

So ugly and so obnoxious that I text messaged a close friend about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1- Why don't you fold the flop when it's two back to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

11-14-2005, 04:13 AM

I cannot understand not three betting in the second hand before the flop. This is like a fat chick in a pink dress in a bikini ad...

thesharpie

11-14-2005, 04:15 AM

Hand 1 - I fold to the SB's check/call/cap.

Hand 2 - I think you have too much of an edge to not raise this PF, and the pot's going to be too big to manage even if you just call, if the flop goes perfect and they check to the button who bets you'll be offering 10 to 1 anyway. I could be wrong about PF though and hopefully someone will explain why if so. I have a rough idea of why it might be wrong, if it is.
I think I'd fold the flop, but if you are carrying on the 3 bet looks good, got to invest that extra SB that we might have to call anyway to increase our winning chances.

Hand 3 - Fold the flop, fold the river.

Dennisa

11-14-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

--- Hand #2 ---

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Everyone calls so it's nine to the flop.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif
Checked to the CO who bets, the Button raises, the SB folds and I 3-bet

You are abosolutly nuts on this hand. If you are not going to try to 3 bet preflop to move out some of the limpers, This is a clear fold when it comes back to you on the flop. You got a r/r flush draw and 2 overcards that are most likely reverse dominated and against 8 opponents. You have no chance at this pot, you are just throwing good money after your bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

jgorham

11-14-2005, 04:42 AM

In hand 1, I think you need to check that turn. The button here is not really that much of a concern (given the read), and can almost certainly be counted on to bet. As for SB, I feel like his most likely hand is a flush draw, but it is possible he also has a monster. If you check the turn, button bets, and SB checkraises again, then you can fold. But if button bets and SB calls, you have a nice checkraise there. Vs. if you just bet out you risk the button either calling or folding and the SB seeing the river for 1 BB rather than 2.

Now of course this all assumes button is going to bet that turn with a relatively high frequency, but from your read it seems that is the case.

Also, I 3bet preflop in both hand 1 and 2, for solid equity edges.

Hand 2 is fine, but it would be a lot different (and better) if you just would have built a ginormous pot preflop.

Hand 3 I fold the river. If it were HU then it is a call, but CO will probably overcall there with any pocket pair, a 3 or a 4.

jgorham

11-14-2005, 04:44 AM

You need to think a little harder. List how many outs you feel Jason has on this hand, and how large the pot is. Then you will know if a call is correct or not. And a reraise is almost certainly better than a call, because in a pot that big it is really the only chance hero has to clean up some of his outs.

meep_42

11-14-2005, 04:55 AM

hand 1 - You'll have to qualify 'reckless bluffer' a bit more before I think you're ahead of both SB and Button. When SB checks, it seems he either has a monster and wants to check-raise again, or that he was pumping his draw/draws (KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT of diamonds?) If he's as reckless as I'd imagine he'd have to be for you to bet here, are you calling the turn and betting a non-/images/graemlins/diamond.gif river?

Isn't hand 2 straight out of SSH? (Only I beleive Hero has position in Ed's example) Your backdoors and overcards give you enough to continue in the hand and your check-3bet might slow down your oppoents, get a better hand to fold, and clean up outs. I'd like to hear your reasoning for not 3-betting pre-flop, especially since it will force most of the table to call 2-cold. I suppose that most will call anyway, seeing all that money in the pot, so if your expressed intention was to check-raise most flops, then I can understand it.

For hand 3, given that he's a relentless bluffer, wouldn't a river raise be better to get out any random pocket pairs that stuck around or a better A-high?

-d

private joker

11-14-2005, 04:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

newhizzle

11-14-2005, 06:00 AM

hand 1: fold to the flop cap, check/fold turn unless its somehow heads up between you and button when the action gets to you, also i think check/calling would have been your best line on the flop

hand 2: 3-bet preflop, the pots already monsterous as it is, you might as well make it bigger with a good hand, i dont think calling is going to give you any real postflop advantages here

as for the flop, i think its close between calling and folding when its 2 bets back to you, 3-betting is horrible in my oppinion, there is almost no way that you could have the best hand right now, and if you hit a pair it probably wont hold up, you arent really going to knock anyone out that matters, you might as well let them stay in to pay you off on your long-shot back-door flush

hand 3: fold the flop, on the river, i think raising is better than calling

newhizzle

11-14-2005, 06:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to think a little harder. List how many outs you feel Jason has on this hand, and how large the pot is. Then you will know if a call is correct or not. And a reraise is almost certainly better than a call, because in a pot that big it is really the only chance hero has to clean up some of his outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

what outs are you cleaning up by 3-betting here?

SippinSoma

11-14-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet, are you looking for value or fold equity? 50/50 on both? 70/30? 10/90? Do you really like investing more bets with AKo OOP against a field of 10? Or did you just mean gg no re as in you liked calling here?

newhizzle

11-14-2005, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Eight limpers to the Button who raises. The SB calls and I call in the BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

gg

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet, are you looking for value or fold equity? 50/50 on both? 70/30? 10/90? Do you really like investing more bets with AKo OOP against a field of 10? Or did you just mean gg no re as in you liked calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

SippinSoma

11-14-2005, 09:25 AM

You may be right, but I posed the question anyway because it was asked earlier.

jgorham

11-14-2005, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what outs are you cleaning up by 3-betting here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would definitely want people with a 6 to fold, and anyone with JQ. But beyond that, I would want people with Ax or Kx to fold, in the event that they runner runner two pair and take down the pot that is going to be absurdly large by the river. In any case, it is quite the parlay - first your one small bet needs to be the difference between whether or not someone will call (which I don't think is too unreasonable), and then they have to win a pot that you would have otherwise won (the less likely half). But the pot is already 23 small bets when the action gets to you on the flop. And you know it is going to be more than that (probably around 30) by the time all the money goes in on the flop. So our parley only needs to happen 3-4% of the time to make 3betting better than calling, and I think that is the case.

As for preflop - the button (from Jason's description as well as from his actions in these 3 hands) doesn't seem like the type to just call a 3bet when there are 7 or more people in a pot he raised. He is almost certainly going to cap it to build a pot he can tell all his friends about. Not 3betting here is pretty bad.

newhizzle

11-14-2005, 09:47 AM

yeah, maybe its worth it in a pot this big, but this just seems like the type of [censored] i used to do a lot and jason would tell me its bad

jskills

11-14-2005, 02:17 PM

Hand 1: Nice.

Hand 2: I don't understand at all. CO looks like flop hit him and button is raising with either (1) a better piece (2) flush draw (3) stone bluff. I'm not sure overcards and BD flsuh warrant a 3-bet?

Hand 3: So you believe button does not beat A high with 4 kicker?

silkyslim

11-14-2005, 02:26 PM

hand 1- i like a flop fold when SB caps. ah now i see, he call/capped, so u put him on the flush draw. Buttons action indicated any 2 cards, so u are ahead. man u r smart.

hand 2- preflp: induce a flop bet from button so you can c/r the field. I like the 3 bet with the 2 backdoors and overs. on what kind of flop would you fold this to the raise?

hand3- id actually just fold the flop. your gutshotand over is corrupted by flushes and your kicker might not be good. pot is small. f it and fold.

B Dids

11-14-2005, 02:42 PM

Hand 1:

I check the turn and see what the button does. Maybe the SB is just goofing around, but if you bet, the button calls and he raises, you're not in a giant pot and you really need to fold and that just feels icky. The fact that you called the flop tells me that you don't trust them, but I think you want to find a cheaper way to see showdown and taking position on a potential check raiser on the turn seems hot. If I knew more about the SB, everything changes.

Hand 2:

I want to re-raise preflop. Nobody's folding right? Assuming I don't, I like your play if you think you're folding people.

Hand 3:

Meh. I guess, but I probably just dump it on the flop.

DMBFan23

11-14-2005, 02:43 PM

if by black you mean offsuit then I fold PF in hand 1.

hand 2 is fine because you have to call almost on backdoors alone, CO shouldn't cap his TP, and you can legitimately clean up some ace outs here. I don't think free cards or eliminating CO should be part of the discussion, but I dont think you see it that way either. what would button's capping range here be?

hand 3, I check-fold the flop. reverse implied odds blow.

jason_t

11-14-2005, 03:04 PM

I sincerely don't understand how anyone can suggest a preflop or flop fold.

jason_t

11-14-2005, 03:05 PM

This post is intended for those of you saying to 3-bet the AK preflop. My idea was this: I thought that my EV would be higher by passing up my preflop equity edge to control the pot size and eliminate some of the field on the flop. That is, it's entirely possible that

EV(3-bet and call a cap) < EV(call and check/raise a lot of flops)

but I don't admit to know the truth of this. This is possibly true if I can increase my chances of winning significantly enough with a flop check/raise to make up for the lost preflop equity. However, if you're going to make comments about the lack of a 3-bet, how about convincing me with some mathematics rather than rhetoric?

jason_t

11-14-2005, 03:07 PM

The Button is very aggressive and loves to bluff. I have a wheel draw and possibly the best hand with A high. I didn't check/raise because I think my EV might be higher by letting him bluff more. I don't know. I posted these hands for help in analysis.

DMBFan23

11-14-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely don't understand how anyone can suggest a preflop or flop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am willing to admit that my BB defense guidelines are largely arbitrary, what is the lowest you will go here?

B Dids

11-14-2005, 03:09 PM

ME HAVE GOOD HAND (wherein good=likely better than everybody else) ME RAISE.

I think this is a time where math overcomplicates things, especially if we're tryign to c/r a lot of flops, because with 8 people in the pot, that's just way too many variables to control.

I specifically dislike the plan of calling preflop with the intention of c/ring a lot of boards because again, there's so many variables. What flops, who bets, who calls, it's all a bit far to go to get value when a simply preflop 3-bet probably makes the hand easier to play post flop as well.

MrEngenic

11-14-2005, 04:15 PM

I'm not sure I like a single post flop decision and I don't like preflop in hand 1 and 2. What's your BB/100, maybe I have alot to learn from you.

private joker

11-14-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an inside joke/reference to this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=smallholdem&Number=390128 5&Searchpage=3&Main=3893357&Words=jason_t&topic=&S earch=true#Post3901285), from a thread where the idea of not raising AKo PF from the BB against a family pot of limpers was laughed out of the building.

toss

11-14-2005, 05:07 PM

jason_t

11-14-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think he said "gg" because there were 8 limpers and it was a good game, but i might be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an inside joke/reference to this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=smallholdem&Number=390128 5&Searchpage=3&Main=3893357&Words=jason_t&topic=&S earch=true#Post3901285), from a thread where the idea of not raising AKo PF from the BB against a family pot of limpers was laughed out of the building.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a huge difference between these two situations. In my situation there is an aggressive Button who I can exploit postflop to increase my chances of winning the pot. If that chance is p and p is large enough so that

.18 * (expected final pot size after 3-betting preflop) < p * (expected final pot size after not 3-betting preflop)

then my idea is a good one. The .18 comes from AK's hot/cold equity against eight random hands. Of course, it's very difficult to estimate p but I do know that with this Button I will be able to check/raise against his likely inferior hand a lot. Every limper that I can clear with this check/raise increases p.

This is really no different than passing up a flop equity edge to exploit one on the turn.

Now, there's a little bit more going on. I'm OOP. That hurts my equity a little. My hand is offsuit; big offsuit broadway cards do not like big multiway pots. Moreover, we have six limpers, a Button raise and an SB cold call. On average I would say the chances that no pair and no other Ax or Kx hands are out there is low. This does cut into my average equity.

Again, I'm not claiming to have this figured out. I'm just telling you what my idea was at the table in the two seconds I had to make my decision and I'm hoping to hear some analysis.

SippinSoma

11-14-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Now, there's a little bit more going on. I'm OOP. That hurts my equity a little. My hand is offsuit; big offsuit broadway cards do not like big multiway pots. Moreover, we have six limpers, a Button raise and an SB cold call. On average I would say the chances that no pair and no other Ax or Kx hands are out there is low. This does cut into my average equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your equity is largely hurt by your position. Let's say everyone complied and checked to the button. He'll bet, you'll raise, and people will still be getting 8:1. This is probably the best case scenario as well. I like the point you made - this is exactly like waiting until the turn for a greater edge.

As for the other hands, I can't find anything that's wrong IMO.

DeathDonkey

11-14-2005, 05:27 PM

Hand 3:

As I mentioned last night I much prefer a flop checkraise or a river checkraise given the lineup you suggested. If you allow the limper to overcall and win with a small pair it is a complete disaster.

I too cannot fathom folding the flop in hand 1. The dude has a set or a flush draw, and then he checks the turn. If a diamond comes on the river I think you should open muck though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey