Continuation bets

[Sponger15SB]

Situation that frequently happens:

$1/2 6max

I raise with KQo from UTG+1, SB and BB both call, they're both stupid typical low limit players.

Flop is like 4 4 3 rainbow. They both check and I'm not really sure what to do because I'm likely to get called in both spots with jack high and nine high.

Do I bet here? I am not sure why?

Any general advice on contination bets with nothing? In no limit I could bet with just about anything and expect to take it down like 75% of the time.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
.

They both check and I'm not really sure what to do because I'm likely to get called in both spots with jack high and nine high.


[/ QUOTE ]
seriously dude, wow.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
seriously dude, wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the input!

go back to jerking off to videos of yourself playing poker.

obviously, yes, i'd want them to call me with those hands, but these spots confuse me because not every time to they have those hands, a lot of the time i'm called down by A2, or 22.... or say its actually a

J 7 4 board and I get call down by pocket 5's.... etc.

perhaps I needed a better example?

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure what to do because I'm likely to get called in both spots with jack high and nine high.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's called getting paid. Bet. Your reduced folding equity is made up for by increased value.

You can bet a turn blank as well, or check behind and play the river by ear.

This situation happens approximately one billion times a night so you'll need to develop patterns for it. I bet in the spot you describe most of the time, but I will mix in checks as well. mmmm... checks mix.

/mc

[imported_leader]

Just bet it. Your fold equity it greater then you think and you probably have the best hand still.

If you had played 10k hands instead of posting 10k posts you would know to CB that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
If you had played 10k hands instead of posting 10k posts you would know to CB that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh cmon! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I restarted trying to play limit 1 week ago....

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3426/pokarrr6fw.jpg

Tommorow I'm gonna post a bunch of random turn donkbet hands that confuse the hell out of me, until then I'll be folding 1 pair in a 12bb pot on the river for 1 bet (i keed, i keed)

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Just bet it. Your fold equity it greater then you think and you probably have the best hand still.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok cool, can I make up some more situations where I raise PF, and 2 loose crappy idiot players check to me and get some input...

QT on 972r flop

KJ on T87r flop

A8 on T75r flop

QJ on 852r flop

Always bet these? Ack.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you had played 10k hands instead of posting 10k posts you would know to CB that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh cmon! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I restarted trying to play limit 1 week ago....

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3426/pokarrr6fw.jpg

Tommorow I'm gonna post a bunch of random turn donkbet hands that confuse the hell out of me, until then I'll be folding 1 pair in a 12bb pot on the river for 1 bet (i keed, i keed)

[/ QUOTE ]

My advice is to do some reading if you haven't already. Namely the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum has a lot of great stuff.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
My advice is to do some reading if you haven't already. Namely the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum has a lot of great stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for the link.

I guess I took "posting guidelines" to be something about bison bisons hand converter, common abbreviations, etc.

Not to mention in the FAQ the links to more good threads should be easily identifiable, etc.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess I took "posting guidelines" to be something about bison bisons hand converter, common abbreviations, etc.

Not to mention in the FAQ the links to more good threads should be easily identifiable, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

shhh...

we're trying to keep things all "hush hush"...many favor not having an FAQ at all b/c the learning curve does good thingns for keeping the quality of posts here high + game preservation etc.

Surf

[Sponger15SB]

You just hate me because I'm a bodyboarder.





DON'T DENY IT





LIAR





(did I just hijack my own thread?)

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]


1. QT on 972r flop

2. KJ on T87r flop

3. A8 on T75r flop

4. QJ on 852r flop

Always bet these? Ack.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I'd check. hitting an OESD on the turn is great, and we don't have much fold equity. Our hand is much less likely to be best.

2. Check. 2 weak players with average cards are going to hit this flop or make drawing hands often. We really want to pair up or improve to a draw...if our hand is currently best its a reverse implied odds nightmare.

3. I'll bet here, over-under type hands may fold and our hand rates bto be best more often.

4. I'll bet here too, not many hands have improved and we'd like to keep the initiative. We can followup on good turn cards like A/K/Q/J, else we can take a free river.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
You just hate me because I'm a bodyboarder.





DON'T DENY IT





LIAR





(did I just hijack my own thread?)

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG. THAT type of sponger? I thought it was like sponge-bets. DIE BODYBOARDER!

*ahem*

Surf

[ArturiusX]

Anyone who rides a sponge gets auto respect in my books /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sponger15SB]

Thank you for that post. Also, I found this picture of a few of your buddies. Enjoy!

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6592/ps112804laneb2627if.jpg

[Victor]

hi sponger,

i will teach how to beat 10/20short for 1bb/100 if you introduce me to some desperate cali girls with low self-esteem.

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
hi sponger,

i will teach how to beat 10/20short for 1bb/100 if you introduce me to some desperate cali girls with low self-esteem.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]

QT on 972r flop

KJ on T87r flop

A8 on T75r flop

QJ on 852r flop


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I normally continuation bet all of these, since we have overcards, and the flops are not so coordinated, yet slightly coordinated.

Looking at things in PokerStove against 2 random opponents (I know our opponents hands arn't random, as they probably would have raised the top x% of hands, but I think this is somewhat counteracted by the fact that they would have folded the bottom y% of hands):

1. Here we have 24% equity, but if we get out opponents to fold 1/3 of the time, we get an extra ~10% equity boost, so maybe we can bet. The free card turn card may be more valueble, but if you know you can get a free river, then I think a bet might be best.
2. Here we have 32% equity, so our bet seems mandatory.
3. Here we have 28% equity, and we have the ace high for good showdown value against unimproved draws, so i think maybe we still bet this, even though we don't have 2 overcards.
4. Here we have 23% equity, so are basically in the same as situation 1.

Hopefully this still makes sense, even though my hand ranges in PokerStove are a bit off.

[Sponger15SB]

I have always had a problem with pokerstove (and again with SNGpower tools) because its so hard to put people on a specific enough range of hand. Like 50% of the .5/1 & 1/2 players are in the 50vpip/5pfr, so I'm not sure what you put in there, but it seems rather sketchy but you gave me a good general idea.

I suppose in hands 2&3 I have good showdown value so those should be a for sure bet, but I'm suppose to tread more cautiously with just Q high?

I was briefly talking with Evan over AIM about some overcards situations and he basically said that if there are only 2 opponents and he has position he is betting every time. Hmmmm, well I guess the question lives on then. So frustrating! People NEVER FOLD! hahahahaha

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
i will teach how to beat 10/20short for 1bb/100 if you introduce me to some desperate cali girls with low self-esteem.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of my exgirlfriends friends were desparate and had low self-esteem, "unfortunantly" we broke up and I now hang out with my happy, fun, and cute girl friends who are neither desparate nor have low self-esteem.

I guess I am stuck at $1/2 making chicken feed then

[Sponger15SB]

I would like to just say one general thing about posting/reading posts in the poker forums that has obviously stunted my poker growth. I don't seem to get anything out of reading other peoples posts in these forums. For example, I read a few posts by david ross and others which are basically a list of situations like "folded to me in the CO with J9s, what do I do?" and they pretty much pass right through me and I don't really care, however if I were to repost a similar list it would help me greatly because the issue directly effects me.

These similar things would happen to me when I read posts in NL forum because I pretty much never would encouter the same situations, ex "I was c/r'd 2x the pot by a 40/30/3.5 on the turn with AA on a KxJd4d2x board and I don't know what to do" and I wouldn't care because I would think "well that would never happen to me" and so I immediatly forget the advice offered up by the rest of the forum.

Anyways, does anyone have any general advice on like...uh... how to absorb posts? Maybe I could read posts and write up my own little [censored] mock responses and compare them to what others posted further down in the thread, and if they don't suck horribly then I'll post them? Do you people who respond to tons of posts yet never post your own feel that this benfits you a lot?

[Subfallen]

I already PM'ed you about that. Stop ignoring good posters who criticize your play.

When flawless_victory, a member of my extremely prestigious List of Top 10 Strategy Posters, replies to your thread with:

[ QUOTE ]
seriously dude, wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

stop and ponder for a time what about your post sucked so badly that it attracted flawless's derision. Then humbly ask him or others to elaborate.

It's not so hard.

Edit - also, immediately put SpicyMoose on ignore. He is currently spamming HUSH with some of the worst advice I have ever seen.

[brazilio]

He derides at least half the posts here, and makes sure his pretentious crap gets spewed everywhere about how the forum needs to be split because of standard posts while he "accidentally" forgets he condescended to enter a 3/6 or 1/2 hand. A lot like TheMetetron. So it's not all that shocking or strange.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot like TheMetetron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet.

[brazilio]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot like TheMetetron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, did you do a search for your name or something? Found this post pretty quick I guess...

[flair1239]

I play on a few sites with smaller player pools. When I am at a table with many familiar players, one of the adjustments I make is to mix in some checks where I would normally autobet. Let's say between 15-20% of the time.

Reason being if you are constantly auto-betting flop and turns against the same players, eventually you erode your fold equity to the point that your auto-bet (semi-bluff) is no longer profitable. Mixing in a few checks kind of restores/maintains your fold equity.

The thing to watch for though, is once you do this you have to occasionally check some decent hands as well.

[pyroponic]

Please do us all a favor and post a link to a bigger picture of the girl in your avatar somewhere.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Please do us all a favor and post a link to a bigger picture of the girl in your avatar somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was from a thread in OOT, its a joke cause the girl is like 16 and the guy posting it was some perv.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please do us all a favor and post a link to a bigger picture of the girl in your avatar somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was from a thread in OOT, its a joke cause the girl is like 16 and the guy posting it was some perv.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah hard to tell from this vantage point

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


1. QT on 972r flop
2. KJ on T87r flop
3. A8 on T75r flop
4. QJ on 852r flop

Always bet these? Ack.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I'd check. hitting an OESD on the turn is great, and we don't have much fold equity. Our hand is much less likely to be best.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]
What if the opponents are passive, making it very likely that it'll be checked to you on the turn if they call the flop?

[zephed]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to just say one general thing about posting/reading posts in the poker forums that has obviously stunted my poker growth. I don't seem to get anything out of reading other peoples posts in these forums. For example, I read a few posts by david ross and others which are basically a list of situations like "folded to me in the CO with J9s, what do I do?" and they pretty much pass right through me and I don't really care, however if I were to repost a similar list it would help me greatly because the issue directly effects me.

These similar things would happen to me when I read posts in NL forum because I pretty much never would encouter the same situations, ex "I was c/r'd 2x the pot by a 40/30/3.5 on the turn with AA on a KxJd4d2x board and I don't know what to do" and I wouldn't care because I would think "well that would never happen to me" and so I immediatly forget the advice offered up by the rest of the forum.

Anyways, does anyone have any general advice on like...uh... how to absorb posts? Maybe I could read posts and write up my own little [censored] mock responses and compare them to what others posted further down in the thread, and if they don't suck horribly then I'll post them? Do you people who respond to tons of posts yet never post your own feel that this benfits you a lot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Like you, I don't absorb a lot of what I read. I guess I just don't learn well by reading or watching or listening for that matter. I have to work through problems on my own to understand things more completely. Some people learn best by reading, others by doing it themselves. We're all special little snowflakes.

I suggest you go through a few hands that interest you and do some hand ranges and calculate your equity and such. If you find that the players are so loose that it is difficult to put them on anything, then I suggest you create a few sets of possible hands for them. For instance, make a really wide range, then a really narrow range, and then something in between and figure out how much difference they make.

I think the easiest would be to start with hands that are heads up on the end. Maybe tough value bet decisions in position, or scary boards out of position against an aggressive opponent. Whatever it is, you need to stop and think about a hand for awhile, not just gloss over the hand and skim the responses. If you go through all this work, please for the sake of the forum make sure to post it. No one will care that you make a mistake, and half the people won't even notice the mistakes.

[TStoneMBD]

when i read that sponger was afraid of 9s and tens calling on this flop i also thought "wow", but in reality sponger is smarter than you first realize. subfallen, i dont like you kissing flawless_victory's ass in this thread because he definitely does not deserve it.

even tho you are putting in bets with what will often be the best hand, the bet might not have positive equity because you arent able to bring your hand to the showdown unimproved. say sponger bets this flop and is called in both places then checks the turn, he will end up folding to a river bet and therefore his flop bet just bleeds money. its a terrible spot to be in. as a result, i agree with sponger that it sucks getting called with 9 and T high because when your opponents call with 9 and T high in this situation you are actually generating folding equity for them and your bet has losing value.

continuation betting KQ on this flop is a tough spot to be in, because the SB after coldcalling preflop is almost certainly proceeding to the turn on this flop and the BB will come along as well closing the action figuring his pot odds are good enough to call with any 2. normally you would think that a bet has amazing value when 2 players call with worse hands but not when you cant take your hand to showdown.

that is the problem with firing QJ on a 875 board, you are going to get called in 2 places and your bet has significant losing value. i would not be betting QJ on that board unless i know my opponents are going to be folding, but coldcalling SB's almost never, ever do.

in this situation with KQ however, i think its important to fire a bet on the flop but for other reasons than immediate value. you want both players to check the turn to you so that you can see the river for free. the 1 SB you invest to see the river is a very good investment. you also have the option to proceed in betting the turn if you think there is still a good chance that you are ahead and want to make it to the showdown. the problem with the situation you are currently in is that the SB's coldcalling range from that position often contains hands with an ace or a pocket pair. you are often behind in this situation and you would prefer if the SB and BB would just fold hands that are weaker than yours on the flop so that you immediately know where you stand and wont be required to invest more bets on later streets.

depending on your propensity to take KQ to the showdown on these boards, its actually profitable for the SB and the BB to be calling with weaker hands. a huge variable that needs to be considered is the likelihood that you will be able to see the river after youve bet this flop. will they check the following street to you as well or will they make you pay?

many people assume that after youve checked the turn that a hand like A5 will often check the river since their bet doesnt have any value, which would be a good check but at this level these players dont understand that. they automatically bet any 2 after youve checked the turn whether theyre holding ace high or 2 blanks. their ace high bet will actually be an amazing value bet the times that you call with KQ unimproved.

[oreogod]

Well u can bet flop/check turn or bet flop/bet turn/ck river. My preference for the line depends on what kind of players they are and if they both call what sort of hands they would call u with and if I think I could be best or need to improve. Also to consider is their ability to cr u and such.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but if u are in a longer session or play against the same ppl occasionally mix up your autobets. Check sometimes, and then sometimes mix up your turn play. This probbaly didnt help, but hey, whatever.

[flair1239]

Good post.

But what about situations where you have outs to outs.. say like a BDSD or BDFD or both. In that siutation if you were going to take a free card.. would you not prefer to take it on the turn? So betting the flop even though you are very sure you have little fold equity would then become worth it.

And if that is the case does not a draw as weak as unimproved overcards benefit more from a free card on the turn as opposed to a free card on the flop?

I guess what I am wondering is checking the flop probably means folding the turn unimproved in many cases. I have not done math on this yet, but I imagine especially in the original hand, that we are better off waiting to take a free card until the turn if that is what we are planning to do.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just bet it. Your fold equity it greater then you think and you probably have the best hand still.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok cool, can I make up some more situations where I raise PF, and 2 loose crappy idiot players check to me and get some input...

QT on 972r flop

KJ on T87r flop

A8 on T75r flop

QJ on 852r flop

Always bet these? Ack.

[/ QUOTE ]


bet

bet

bet

bet

bet

Here's a rule of thumb. If you have raised preflop, and you have two opponents or less, bet the flop.

If one of them folds, you should usually bet the turn. If they both call, the turn is no longer an autobet.

Of course you'll want to mix it up a bit, but if you pretty much follow this, you'll do ok on continuation bets.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]

bet

bet

bet

bet

bet

[/ QUOTE ]

What about against this guy.

VPIP: 72
PFR: 3
F AGG: .47
T AGG: 2
R AGG: 2

This particular player gave me fits last night. I was in position on him and would iso raise him only to have him donk the turn/bet the river if i checked turn. I try to call down correctly but I guess I just dont know what I'm doing. The times he was on the button and I was in the SB were even worse.

[TripleH68]

You may have done this already.

I have been reading and re-reading HEPFAP part five - playing short-handed. It is a short little section but is helping me on how to 'mix it up' a little in these situations. Also to realize what my opponents may be thinking when they are playing out of the blinds.

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a rule of thumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaa

[TStoneMBD]

in regards to your thoughts about whether taking a free card is better on the flop or the turn:

you are betting the flop to see the river for 1sb. by checking the flop you will usually be forced to pay 1 BB on the turn to see the river. the question isnt whether taking a free card on the flop is better than taking a free card on the turn, the question is whether the investment of 1SB is worth the value of seeing a river card.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
the question is whether the investment of 1SB is worth the value of seeing a river card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally something valuable from this thread.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

What if the opponents are passive, making it very likely that it'll be checked to you on the turn if they call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't expect to be raised by any hand short of top pair or better, then a 1sb investment to get to the river is usually worthwhile, even with as little as 6 overcard outs. The higher you play, the less likely this is to work, however. I wouldn't recommend counting on it often at 10/20+ since even the "loose passives" there like to c/r flops.

Surf

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a rule of thumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaa

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this funny? OP is playing 1/2 and .5/1 6-max... that [censored] works at that level.

[TStoneMBD]

hi surf, you summed up my thoughts better than i could have. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[EvanJC]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do us all a favor and post a link to a bigger picture of the girl in your avatar somewhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It was from a thread in OOT, its a joke cause the girl is like 16 and the guy posting it was some perv.



[/ QUOTE ]

uhh...link pls? ^_^

[Sponger15SB]

Thank you for that post TStoneMBD. Also to others who have chimed in.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What if the opponents are passive, making it very likely that it'll be checked to you on the turn if they call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't expect to be raised by any hand short of top pair or better, then a 1sb investment to get to the river is usually worthwhile, even with as little as 6 overcard outs. The higher you play, the less likely this is to work, however. I wouldn't recommend counting on it often at 10/20+ since even the "loose passives" there like to c/r flops.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

So against a 40/10 loose passive guy with A9 on a J75r flop @ 10/20 where they like to c/r you arent checking behind here are you?

I struggle knowing when I should call c/rs or fold. This example would be a fold correct?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]


So against a 40/10 loose passive guy with A9 on a J75r flop @ 10/20 where they like to c/r you arent checking behind here are you?

I struggle knowing when I should call c/rs or fold. This example would be a fold correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet this flop since even a limper will often only have 1 overcard and no pair - our hand rates to be best quite often. If I get c/r'd calling or folding depends on my opponent - if he'll c/r any pair and some weird gutshot+over draws etc then i'll def peel because I expect a 9 to be good often. If he's not-too-aggressive and I think most of his c/r'ing hands are top /mid pair or a PP i'll just fold outright.

Surf

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do us all a favor and post a link to a bigger picture of the girl in your avatar somewhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It was from a thread in OOT, its a joke cause the girl is like 16 and the guy posting it was some perv.



[/ QUOTE ]

uhh...link pls? ^_^

[/ QUOTE ]

Thread got removed

OOT had a big debate on whether her body was worth her face, stalked her, found her name, found her high school, found her myspace page, maybe more and the thread was removed.

Good work OOT