Overplayed AK

[Softrock]

Same game as the one I posted the 69o and JTs BTF questions. I appreciate the feedback - still wondering if 96o call is as bad as the consensus says it is but this is why I post - to get feedback that I can digest and learn from.

Here's another one to mull over. UTG limps, UTG+1 is a solid player who plays very similarly to me and we often stay out of each other's way - he raises. The raise is likely a pair 88 or higher, AQo or higher, AT suited or higher, maybe KQs. SB calls, I call with AKo (4 way I don't see any value in raising here). UTG calls. 4 to the flop with $320 in the pot. Flop is Q56 rainbow. I check, UTG checks, solid player bets, SB folds. Now I was ready to just fold but I was pretty sure the UTG would fold if I raised and I'd be heads up with the solid player and there would be a fair amount of dead money in the pot - my thought process at the time is this is one of those situations where even if I'm behind the dead money would give me enough of a chance to win that a raise was worthwhile. I've since had time to think this through more thoroughly - if he has something like TT which he would probably play this way, then I have 6 outs with the pot offering $360. However, if he does have TT or similar, I might see a free card on the turn. If he has AQ, I only have 3 outs. If he has something like AJ or AT, then I'm well in the lead. Does this qualify as a legitimate "sometimes" play or not?

What happened actually gave me an edge I wouldn't even have considered. The solid player 3-bet (now I knew I had trapped myself). I called and was prepared to check-fold on the turn absent an A or K. The turn was a J - no flush draw. I checked and solid player bet. Now, I can reasonably narrow his holdings to AQ, KK, AA with some possibility that he had JJ, and a smaller possibility that he had TT or 99 (with two overcards I tend to doubt that he'd bet these hands after the strength I showed on the flop). I'm almost certain he does not have QQ (he would have flat-called my flop raise and wait for me to bet out on the turn). So, most likely I have 7 outs with the pot laying me $640 to $80 (8 to 1) clearly a call (although I this point I'm cursing myself for trapping myself in this hand) and worse case possible I have 4 clean outs (if he has JJ or QQ). River was a T - I bet right out, got called and there were gasps of surprise from several players. What they saw was a runner, runner straight catching the 4 outer on the river and thinking that I must have really gone on tilt.

The solid player later told me he had KK and I have no reason not to believe him. He teased me about getting cute on the flop but seemed to realize that it wasn't a completely unwarranted move.

So, I have no question that the turn call is correct and boy I like what this hand did for my image. Is my flop play terrible, not great but not terrible, a reasonable mix it up play, a brilliant keep the pressure on them play or something else?

[Vehn]

River was a T - I bet right out, got called and there were gasps of surprise from several players.

This line made me spill my iced tea and JD. Which isn't as bad as it sounds.

All I can say really is there's such a thing as being "too solid", we call those people rocks. Mix it up sometimes against the other "solid" players (or in my case, a lot of the time).

I would also just call preflop. I would also call on the turn.

[elysium]

hi soft
it's usually better to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn in this situation, especially against a solid good opponent, but folding on the flop isn't bad either, especially if he wouldn't raise in from that position and bet out on the flop without a big pair. but generally, if you're going to play it, it's usually better to check-call the flop.

[RollaJ]

We've all made this exact type of play, when it works its great, and very often it will work when they fold to the c/r on the flop. Sometimes it works the way you stated where you get 3 bet, and rather than give it up there and admit a bluff you peel one off with all kinds of rationalizations of various outs and you get sucked in more... check call the turn at least now you know you have some outs you can identify and hit the miracle card on the end. You feel so dirty and guilty while your stacking their chips /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[bad beetz]

I would 3 bet before the flop. I love it when AQ puts in that third bet and I have AK. If any solid player 4-bets than you know more, and knowing is half the battle.

The river is a toss up between betting out and check-raising. If he is solid like you say, he has to realize that you wouldn't take that much heat with AK /forums/images/icons/smile.gif but allot of hand you have could be trying to check raise. Depending on how aggressive the guy is I might check raise the river.

[mike l.]

i think the only part poorly played was the river. there's pretty much no reason not to go for a checkraise there.

your turn call is very thin, but not awful. a fold would be fine too. you need to, with those 3 iffy outs, include the times you get trapped for more bets when an A or K falls and he has a set or the A or K improves his hand as well. so just safely assuming a 4 outer and nothing more would lean this towards a fold.

you really need to get your head examined re: the 96o thing. if youre still thinking that may be right youre in trouble.

[Softrock]

"you really need to get your head examined re: the 96o thing. if youre still thinking that may be right youre in trouble."

Do you know a good shrink?

Seriously, the way my mind works is I seriously consider input I get particularly from people like you and others on this forum but it takes me awhile to process and actually change. And yeh I have to say I'm still not absolutely convinced but the strong consensus of opinion from this group has made me think that maybe I have a bigger blind spot than I'm aware of.

Thanks for the feedback.