Let's play another weird one. KQo in the BB.

[Entity]

$15/30, full ring again.

UTG limper. Then UTG+1 limps. He's a slightly loose asian man who plays decently but not great postflop. He calls down with losers too often. He's capable of raising draws and reading hands but not super well. He can be aggressive and I'd guess he's a 30/5 guy preflop. From my recollection he raises AK and TT-AA.

Fairly LAG guy limps OTB. He's been playing aggressively but usually he plays made hands hard and draws passively. SB completes and I check K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. 5 to the flop, 5SB.

The flop is Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks. I bet. UTG folds. UTG+1 raises. Button calls two. SB folds. I 3-bet. UTG+1 calls. Button calls. 3 to the turn, 7BB.

Turn is the K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet. UTG+1 raises. LAG calls. I 3-bet. UTG+1 4-bets. LAG calls. I call. 3 to the river, 19BB.

River is the 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and I check intending to fold.

Rob

[toss]

UTG+1 won't 4-bet the turn with KQo?

[W. Deranged]

This seems extremely read-dependent. From what you say, the passivity of UTG+1 and the likelihood the LAG had a draw here that just hit makes checking the river the obvious choice. I think if it goes bet, fold I think you should probably call and hope for a chop/worse-two-pair/metagame/ability to see his cards and so on and so forth. My guess is that pretty often this is going to go bet-raise anyway and so you'll decision will be easy.

The tough question is what to do if it goes check, check, bet. That's pretty hard. If you think the LAG would bet some hands you beat I think it's probably better to raise in that situation than to call if you think there's any chance of promoting your hand to a winner.

[Nick C]

That's a horrible river card.

Let's hope Button has 65 and not a flush draw (and also not the less likely JT).

Even then, though, we still are quite likely losing to UTG+1's 77 or 44. So I guess we're hoping, at best, that Button doesn't have the obvious draw and we're chopping with UTG+1.

I'm going to admit, though, that I'd have trouble actually folding, if the river action went check, check, bet.

And if it went check, bet, fold, I think we should call. I would also overcall if the action went check, bet, call, but I'm not really expecting that action.

Anyway, though, I suppose the action we're really expecting is check, bet, raise, and I think I could find a fold after that sequence.

[PokerSparky]

I just can't fold the river for one bet.

[Borodog]

Aggressor looks like he also has KQ if he's rational, but could easily have 44 or 77. 3 ways each to hold one of the sets, 4 ways to hold another KQ. There's always the chance he was ramming some mega draw like JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif because it stayed 4 handed, although it's unlikely.

I definitely check the river, but cannot find a fold for 1 bet. I definitely don't like the promo raise if it checks to the button and he bets. He seems clearly on a draw and the most likely draw just got there. Two big bets is too costly here. I'm fine calling and then folding to a check-raise.

Basically I'm putting in 1 bet on this river and no more.

[hbgolfpro]

Hey Entity....since the button is LAG, how about lets check raise the flop. When you lead you give the spades at least 6-1. If it is checked to the button, and since he is LAG he will bet, we can force the spades to call two cold. Just a thought....what do you think?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Aggressor looks like he also has KQ if he's rational, but could easily have 44 or 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

If one thinks that KQ/77/44 play the flop and turn identically (I don't think this), it's fairly trivial to see that there are 4 combinations of KQ and 6 combinations of 44/77.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aggressor looks like he also has KQ if he's rational, but could easily have 44 or 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

If one thinks that KQ/77/44 play the flop and turn identically (I don't think this), it's fairly trivial to see that there are 4 combinations of KQ and 6 combinations of 44/77.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that I though KQ and a set play the flop and turn identically. I would weight KQ heavier because of the non-cap on the flop, but I would weight a set heavier because of the cap on the turn. In any case I think he almost certainly has KQ or a set.

And unless I'm mistaken I pointed out there were 4 combos of KQ and 6 of a set.

[meep_42]

Any thought about check-raise-call on the turn? 3 bets is about the most I want to go in there against a reasonable-ish opponent. Though, looking it over again, he didn't cap the flop.

As it played out, you're hoping for a chop at best, and I don't think you get there that often when your opponent 4-bets the turn. A fold is probably best, but I'm not sure I could do it closing the action for 1 bet.

-d

[thesharpie]

Looks good to me given the reads, even though I wouldn't have been able to make the fold when playing, if the LAG folds though it's a call. Have you seen the LAG get passive with weak made hands when other people are jamming the pot? If so that would swing it to a call for me.

I would raise this preflop here, especially live. I think your equity is decent, and live I love raising close spots because of the incredible change it can give in your image.

It is weird how you change Button to Lag on the turn.

I'm surprised you haven't talked about the LAG at all. I understand you can't love the turn action from UTG+1, but don't you have look at LAG at all? In a pot like this, when I want to feel like Huddini on the river I've got my eyes wide open and my spidy sense working overtime.

[Entity]

bump.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
$15/30, full ring again.

UTG limper. Then UTG+1 limps. He's a slightly loose asian man who plays decently but not great postflop. He calls down with losers too often. He's capable of raising draws and reading hands but not super well. He can be aggressive and I'd guess he's a 30/5 guy preflop. From my recollection he raises AK and TT-AA.

Fairly LAG guy limps OTB. He's been playing aggressively but usually he plays made hands hard and draws passively. SB completes and I check K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. 5 to the flop, 5SB.

The flop is Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks. I bet. UTG folds. UTG+1 raises. Button calls two. SB folds. I 3-bet. UTG+1 calls. Button calls. 3 to the turn, 7BB.

Turn is the K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet. UTG+1 raises. LAG calls. I 3-bet. UTG+1 4-bets. LAG calls. I call. 3 to the river, 19BB.

River is the 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and I check intending to fold.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

LAG has to be on /images/graemlins/spade.gif's unless you have mis-read him for a LAG as opposed to a monkey. If the river action goes, check, Asian dude bets, LAG folds, I think you can call closing the action getting 653:1.

[Joe Tall]

The pot is too big to fold, just call.