I Can't Believe What I am about to type

[Pudge714]

Jake Plummer is the NFL MVP right now.
Discuss MVP or other awards here right now I have.
MVP No Mistake Jake
Offensive POY LaDanian Tomlinson
Defensive MVP Dwight Freeney
Offensive ROY Heath Miller
Defensive ROY Odell Thurman
Coach of the Year Jon Gruden

[Jack of Arcades]

Walter Jones.

[Army Eye]

Plummer? How is he the MVP?? He's playing solid, don't get me wrong, but MVP? For 13 TD passes in nine games and a middle of the pack rating?

Walter Jones, I really like that as an outside the box pick.

Steve Smith would be my MVP. The guy is the only weapon on that offense and the Panthers are scoring points and winning games. They sure aren't getting anything from the other receivers or the running game.

MVP is almost always a QB though, which I strongly disagree with.

[DukeSucks]

<------------------

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Plummer? How is he the MVP?? He's playing solid, don't get me wrong, but MVP? For 13 TD passes in nine games and a middle of the pack rating?

Walter Jones, I really like that as an outside the box pick.

Steve Smith would be my MVP. The guy is the only weapon on that offense and the Panthers are scoring points and winning games. They sure aren't getting anything from the other receivers or the running game.

MVP is almost always a QB though, which I strongly disagree with.

[/ QUOTE ]

From a pure production standpoint, the QB is always the most valuable of the skill positions.

[CD56]

you have to do more than not mess up to be MVP, lots of QBs meet this qualification right now...Brady, Manning, Hasselbeck.

the only difference is that everyone expects plummer to play like a tard, but that shouldn't make him MVP

right now i gotta go steve smith, but i bet it will be someone else by the end of the season id guess, LT,Shaun A., maybe Edge

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Plummer? How is he the MVP?? He's playing solid, don't get me wrong, but MVP? For 13 TD passes in nine games and a middle of the pack rating?

Walter Jones, I really like that as an outside the box pick.

Steve Smith would be my MVP. The guy is the only weapon on that offense and the Panthers are scoring points and winning games. They sure aren't getting anything from the other receivers or the running game.

MVP is almost always a QB though, which I strongly disagree with.

[/ QUOTE ]

As for Walter Jones an O-Line Man will never win MVP
Since a QB almost always wins the award I think Plummer is a good pick. The only QB who is playing better for a premier team is Carson Palmer.

Out of the QB's rated higher than Plummer
McNabb, Brady, and Bledsoe - Team not good enough
Delhomme, Brees, and Peyton - Might not even by their own teams MVP
Roethlisberger- Too many injuries

That leaves Plummer in IMO as one of the top 2 QB's in the MVP race, and I think Plummer is slightly better candidate than Carson because Dewnver will end with more wins than the Bengals.

[Jack of Arcades]

Way to come to your conclusion before looking at facts.

[lastchance]

Brady's just been carrying his team. His defense is sucking, he doesn't have a run game, and the guy is still winning football games on top a division, despite how bad it is. With a normal QB, the Pats would have folded by now.

[brettbrettr]

Whatever. He's a system quarterback.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever. He's a system quarterback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice.

I'd probably give it to Brady.

[Clarkmeister]

MVP is either LT2 or Shaun.

[brettbrettr]

I'll second the Ladanian vote. (As a NYer, even saying "LT2" is too close to saying "LT," which is sacred, so I just call him Ladanian.)

As an aside, does anyone know where to get a hold of some old football games on film? I'm specifically interested in watching LT(1). Torrents would work...

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Jake Plummer is the NFL MVP right now.


[/ QUOTE ]

Give it time, the picks are coming, he cant keep this up forever.

Schedule:

Sun 11/20 NY Jets 4:15 pm
Thu 11/24 at Dallas 4:15 pm
Sun 12/4 at Kansas City 4:15 pm
Sun 12/11 Baltimore 4:15 pm
Sat 12/17 at Buffalo 8:30 pm
Sat 12/24 Oakland 4:15 pm
Sat 12/31 at San Diego 4:30 pm

Hes going to throw a bunch of picks on the San Diego game and one other one maybe two of the following games: at Buffalo, at Kansas City, or at Dallas.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Hes going to throw a bunch of picks on the San Diego game

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Isn't their secondary horrible?

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]

As for Walter Jones an O-Line Man will never win MVP
Since a QB almost always wins the award I think Plummer is a good pick. The only QB who is playing better for a premier team is Carson Palmer.

Out of the QB's rated higher than Plummer
McNabb, Brady, and Bledsoe - Team not good enough
Delhomme, Brees, and Peyton - Might not even by their own teams MVP
Roethlisberger- Too many injuries

That leaves Plummer in IMO as one of the top 2 QB's in the MVP race, and I think Plummer is slightly better candidate than Carson because Dewnver will end with more wins than the Bengals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thought process really saddens me, but if you're just trying to get into the heads of the voters, I have to reluctantly agree that you're on the right track. 'Best QB on a top-tier team' is basically the Heisman voting process and looking back at guys like McNair and Gannon winning MVPs, the NFL voting criteria might not be much different.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll second the Ladanian vote. (As a NYer, even saying "LT2" is too close to saying "LT," which is sacred, so I just call him Ladanian.)

As an aside, does anyone know where to get a hold of some old football games on film? I'm specifically interested in watching LT(1). Torrents would work...

[/ QUOTE ]

this (http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3350825) is the only thing I've ever ran across, but I've never seen any seeders for it. If you ever come across something PLEASE let me know about it somehow. I'd love to see some of this stuff.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Way to come to your conclusion before looking at facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was said in my second post was known to me when I made my first post. My second post just further expanded my thought process to you.

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Shaun Alexander </font> is the NFL MVP right now.
Offensive POY LaDanian Tomlinson
Defensive MVP Dwight Freeney
Offensive ROY Heath Miller
Defensive ROY <font color="red"> Derrick Johnson </font>
Coach of the Year Jon Gruden

[/ QUOTE ]

[Pudge714]

Associated Press MVP's Since the Merger
1967 Johnny Unitas / Daryle Lamonica
1968 Earl Morrall / Joe Namath
1969 Roman Gabriel / Namath
1970 John Brodie
1971 Alan Page
1972 Larry Brown
1973 O.J. Simpson
1974 Ken Stabler
1975 Fran Tarkenton
1976 Bert Jones
1977 Walter Payton
1978 Terry Bradshaw
1979 Earl Campbell
1980 Brian Sipe
1981 Ken Anderson
1982 Mark Moseley
1983 Joe Theismann
1984 Dan Marino
1985 Marcus Allen
1986 Lawrence Taylor
1987 John Elway
1988 Boomer Esiason
1989 Joe Montana
1990 Joe Montana
1991 Thurman Thomas
1992 Steve Young
1993 Emmitt Smith
1994 Steve Young
1995 Brett Favre
1996 Brett Favre
1997 Brett Favre / Barry Sanders
1998 Terrell Davis
1999 Kurt Warner
2000 Marshall Faulk
2001 Kurt Warner
2002 Rich Gannon
2003 Peyton Manning / Steve McNair
2004 Peyton Manning

AP Offensive Player of the Year
Note the award was started in 1972
1972 - Larry Brown, RB Washington
1973 - O.J. Simpson, RB Buffalo
1974 - Ken Stabler, QB Oakland
1975 - Fran Tarkenton, QB Minnesota
1976 - Bert Jones, QB Baltimore
1977 - Walter Payton, RB Chicago
1978 - Earl Campbell, RB Houston
1979 - Earl Campbell, RB Houston
1980 - Earl Campbell, RB Houston
1981 - Ken Anderson, QB Cincinnati
1982 - Dan Fouts, QB San Diego
1983 - Joe Theismann, QB Washington
1984 - Dan Marino, QB Miami
1985 - Marcus Allen, RB LA Raiders
1986 - Eric Dickerson, RB LA Rams
1987 - Jerry Rice, WR San Francisco
1988 - Roger Craig, RB San Francisco
1989 - Joe Montana, QB San Francisco
1990 - Warren Moon, QB Houston
1991 - Thurman Thomas, RB Buffalo
1992 - Steve Young, QB San Francisco
1993 - Jerry Rice, WR San Francisco
1994 - Barry Sanders, RB Detroit
1995 - Brett Favre, QB Green Bay
1996 - Terrell Davis, RB Denver
1997 - Barry Sanders, RB Detroit
1998 - Terrell Davis, RB Denver
1999 - Marshall Faulk, RB St. Louis
2000 - Marshall Faulk, RB St. Louis
2001 - Marshall Faulk, RB St. Louis
2002 - Priest Holmes, RB Kansas City
2003 - Jamal Lewis, RB Baltimore
2004 - Peyton Manning, QB Indianapolis



Including AFL and Co- MVP's 30/43 MVP were QB's
Offensive players of the year 12/33 were QB's

Essentialy for a non QB to win MVP they must have an extradoniary season, or for a QB to win offensive POY they must have an extraordinary statistical season. Furthermore most of these QB's are on top 5 teams in the NFL. Therefore based on previous voter trends the most likely canditates for the MVP award are
Peyton, Roethlisberger, Carson, Plummer, Delhomme, and Hasselbeck.
Earlier I stated my reasoning for why Peyton, Roethlisberger, Carson, and Delhomme should not be MVP, and I think Hasselbeck falls into the category where he is not the MVP of his own team. While there maybe a problem with the mindset of voters, based on there mindsets recently I think Plummer and Carson are one two in the MVP race.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Plummer and Carson are one two in the MVP race

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhhhh, no.

[bugstud]

with SA entering sick-TD levels, heck no.

[Jack of Arcades]

Really, Peyton isn't the MVP of his own team. Right. I mean, he's doing so well because they're just stacking the box for Edge - right?

Shaun Alexander? See: Walter Jones.

I think that since we are talking about who is the MVP right now the MVP must be on a team who is in the playoffs right now. I'll go over the teams and their potential MVP canidates
Pats: Brady
Steelers: No one (Roethlisberger hasn't been healthy enough)
Bengals: Carson
Colts: Peyton, Edge (I think the Colts have too many key players for one to be the MVP)
Jaguars: No real canidates
Broncos: Plummer
Giants: Tiki
Bears: No one
Panthers: Steve Smith
Falcons: Vick, Dunn (Neither of them really deserve it just two names that I thought I'd put down)
Bucs: No one
Seahawks: Shaun
This leaves us with
QBs: Brady, Carson, Plummer
Rbs: Shaun, Tikit
WRs: Steve Smith
If you look at QB's Carson is leading in every major category except picks where he has thrown 5 to Brady's 4 and Plummers' 3 so he is clearly the top QB
Rbs: Shaun is just having a much better year than Tiki
This leaves us with three finalists Carson Palmer, Shaun Alexander, and Steve Smith
Now as well as Carson has been playing I just don't think he has had as big an impact as Shaun and Steve Smith so I'm down to these two and I just think that I give it Shaun because he has more of impact just because he touches the ball almost every other play.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, Peyton isn't the MVP of his own team. Right. I mean, he's doing so well because they're just stacking the box for Edge - right?

Shaun Alexander? See: Walter Jones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll clarify Peyton has been playing very well however one could make an argument that Edge or Freeney have been the MVP thus far. IMO if one is the league MVP they must be indisputably the MVP of their team and I don't think one can say that about Peyton unequivocally. Like they can say it about some other guys.

[Jack of Arcades]

Yeah, one could make an argument for them. I could make an argument for the world being flat. It'd still be a very [censored] stupid one.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hes going to throw a bunch of picks on the San Diego game

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Isn't their secondary horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is Jake Plummer and hes a pick throwing machine in big games away from home.

Its too early for this MVP talk when it comes to Plummer, the Broncos are known for falling apart late, just wait a bit.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hes going to throw a bunch of picks on the San Diego game

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Isn't their secondary horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is Jake Plummer and hes a pick throwing machine in big games away from home.

Its too early for this MVP talk when it comes to Plummer, the Broncos are known for falling apart late, just wait a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, but right now he is a frontrunner, and call me crazy, but I trust Jake Plummer to not horribly screw up. I can't believe I just wrote that

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, one could make an argument for them. I could make an argument for the world being flat. It'd still be a very [censored] stupid one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well seeing how many people would agree that Dwight Freeny is the defensive MVP is it that big a strech to say he is the colts MVP. Considering Edgerrin James is averaging give or take 100 yards and a TD game saying he is MVP could make sense.

[Jack of Arcades]

Okay, let's get two things straight:

1) In terms of skill positions (RB, WR, TE, QB), the most valuable player in terms of production will always be a QB. Why?

a. There is much more depth at RB than QB. Anthony Wright, Kyle Orton, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Charlie Batch, etc, etc. Who's the Kyle Orton of RBs? Kevan Barlow? Marcell Shipp? The best QBs are much better relatively to other QBs than is the case with RBs

b. If that weren't enough, the top QB will generally have over 100 more passes+runs than the top rb will have touches.

2) On any great team, the QB is most likely the MVP, but he will never be the only good player. Great teams usually have good defense, or special teams, or running games, or O-Lines. Looking for a person in a specific situation is retarded; we're asking: who added the most value, in terms of points, to their team? As far as I can tell, that person has been Tom Brady...

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]

Essentialy for a non QB to win MVP they must have an extradoniary season, or for a QB to win offensive POY they must have an extraordinary statistical season.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see where you're coming from. Personally I still think that Plummer's season is just too ordinary to win it.

I think realistically Shaun Alexander is the frontrunner right now. His numbers are as extraordinary as some of the past RB MVP winners, or on that pace anyway.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's get two things straight:

1) In terms of skill positions (RB, WR, TE, QB), the most valuable player in terms of production will always be a QB. Why?

a. There is much more depth at RB than QB. Anthony Wright, Kyle Orton, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Charlie Batch, etc, etc. Who's the Kyle Orton of RBs? Kevan Barlow? Marcell Shipp? The best QBs are much better relatively to other QBs than is the case with RBs

b. If that weren't enough, the top QB will generally have over 100 more passes+runs than the top rb will have touches.

2) On any great team, the QB is most likely the MVP, but he will never be the only good player. Great teams usually have good defense, or special teams, or running games, or O-Lines. Looking for a person in a specific situation is retarded; we're asking: who added the most value, in terms of points, to their team? As far as I can tell, that person has been Tom Brady...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, but at what point did I ever attempt to prove what is said in that post is false.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking for a person in a specific situation is retarded; we're asking: who added the most value, in terms of points, to their team? As far as I can tell, that person has been Tom Brady...

[/ QUOTE ]

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Essentialy for a non QB to win MVP they must have an extradoniary season, or for a QB to win offensive POY they must have an extraordinary statistical season.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see where you're coming from. Personally I still think that Plummer's season is just too ordinary to win it.

I think realistically Shaun Alexander is the frontrunner right now. His numbers are as extraordinary as some of the past RB MVP winners, or on that pace anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to give it to Shaun because I think LDT is having a better year, and for that matter if the Bolts were 6-3 LDT might be my mvp, and if they were 7-2 he would very likely be my MVP.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's get two things straight:

1) In terms of skill positions (RB, WR, TE, QB), the most valuable player in terms of production will always be a QB. Why?

a. There is much more depth at RB than QB. Anthony Wright, Kyle Orton, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Charlie Batch, etc, etc. Who's the Kyle Orton of RBs? Kevan Barlow? Marcell Shipp? The best QBs are much better relatively to other QBs than is the case with RBs

b. If that weren't enough, the top QB will generally have over 100 more passes+runs than the top rb will have touches.

2) On any great team, the QB is most likely the MVP, but he will never be the only good player. Great teams usually have good defense, or special teams, or running games, or O-Lines. Looking for a person in a specific situation is retarded; we're asking: who added the most value, in terms of points, to their team? As far as I can tell, that person has been Tom Brady...

[/ QUOTE ]
Also most of your examples of QB's are backups who are only playing because of injuries so instead of comparing them to Barlow and Shipp you should be comparing them with artose pinner and jonathan wells.
You cannot compare qb with other positions using yardage you need to accept the fact that the play completely different positions and you need to compare them relative to everyone else at their position. Joey Harrington has more passing yards than Shaun Alexander does rushing yards does that mean he deserves MVP more than him?

[lastchance]

But the big problem is that QB's get way more touches than most RB's do. A QB will often throw it 40 times a game, and no RB gets 40 touches a game.

[ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to give it to Shaun because I think LDT is having a better year, and for that matter if the Bolts were 6-3 LDT might be my mvp, and if they were 7-2 he would very likely be my MVP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point I realize now that when looking at recieving LDT is having a much better year than Shaun therefore my MVP is Steve Smith

[Jack of Arcades]

Do a control-f of the whole topic for yards. Before this post, it was only mentioned in your two posts.

I'm saying that QBs have the ability to generate more value because they touch the ball much more often.

As for your backups comment - Artose Pinner hasn't embarrassed himself, Aaron Stecker and Antowain Smith have done okay, Jonathan Wells is averaging 4.1 ypc. Willie Parker did pretty well early in the year. Larry Johnson's been better than Priest. Ricky Williams has come on strong the last couple of games. Hell, Samkon Gado scored 3 TDs today. I think it's safe to say that there's much more depth at RB than there is at QB.

MVP--Steve Smith
Best offensive player Tomlinson

Tomlinson is the best player in the league though so I see no problem in him winning the MVP. (and he can throw like a QB /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Bulldog]

1 Tomlinson

2 Alexander
3 Palmer
4 Manning
5 Smith

[Hornacek]

LVP:

1. Culpepper
2. Owens
3. Houston Texans O-Line
4. Joey Harrington
5. Whoever the f*ck is playing SF QB this week

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
Jake Plummer is the NFL MVP right now.
Discuss MVP or other awards here right now I have.
MVP No Mistake Jake
Offensive POY LaDanian Tomlinson
Defensive MVP Dwight Freeney
Offensive ROY Heath Miller
Defensive ROY Odell Thurman
Coach of the Year Jon Gruden

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there might be a giant seed pod in Jake's locker.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
LVP:

1. Culpepper
2. Owens
3. Houston Texans O-Line
4. Joey Harrington
5. Whoever the f*ck is playing SF QB this week

[/ QUOTE ]

Owens had a pretty good year statisically, and had he not been suspended, it isn't hard to imagine the Eagles at 6-3 this morning, instead of 4-5.

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
Jake Plummer is the NFL MVP right now.
Discuss MVP or other awards here right now I have.
MVP No Mistake Jake
Offensive POY LaDanian Tomlinson
Defensive MVP Dwight Freeney
Offensive ROY Heath Miller
Defensive ROY Odell Thurman
Coach of the Year Jon Gruden

[/ QUOTE ]

Plummer is not the MVP right now, not even close. steve smith, shaun alexander and carson palmer are the top 3, imo.

gruden for coach of the year? no way. its dungy/coughlin/marvin lewis... i don't think you can make an argument for any other coach.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jake Plummer is the NFL MVP right now.
Discuss MVP or other awards here right now I have.
MVP No Mistake Jake
Offensive POY LaDanian Tomlinson
Defensive MVP Dwight Freeney
Offensive ROY Heath Miller
Defensive ROY Odell Thurman
Coach of the Year Jon Gruden

[/ QUOTE ]

Plummer is not the MVP right now, not even close. steve smith, shaun alexander and carson palmer are the top 3, imo.

gruden for coach of the year? no way. its dungy/coughlin/marvin lewis... i don't think you can make an argument for any other coach.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that those three should be top three, but its not totally implausible to make a case for Shanahan or John Fox...

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]

i agree that those three should be top three, but its not totally implausible to make a case for Shanahan or John Fox...

[/ QUOTE ]

true.. but i don't think there is any way marvin lewis doesn't win coach of the year...

Marvin could easily not win coach of the year. Right now th Bengals have had a very soft schedule and have lost all the games they played against good teams. Also a lot of people picked Cincy to breakout no one picked the Bucs to break out. Keep in mind last year the Bucs were the 5th worst team in the NFL and this year could easily make the playoffs.

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
Marvin could easily not win coach of the year. Right now th Bengals have had a very soft schedule and have lost all the games they played against good teams. Also a lot of people picked Cincy to breakout no one picked the Bucs to break out. Keep in mind last year the Bucs were the 5th worst team in the NFL and this year could easily make the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

the bengals havent had a winning season in 15 years. they haven't been to the playoffs in just as long. do you really think jon gruden will win coach of the year having just won the superbowl 3 years ago?