AK is goot? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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detruncate

11-13-2005, 06:34 PM

I'm 8-tabling my way to fun and profit. Love the beginners' tables. I'm new to 8-tabling and easing into it via the .5/1 games.

Reads are minimal. Villain is very loose and aggressive pf, will autocap his raising range and just for fun as a 3rd party (55/25+). While not super aggressive post flop, I expect him to keep betting until played back at. He loves to show down so far, getting there at least 2/3 of the time despite playing so many hands. He's sitting at 20 BB.

I've been pretty quiet I think. I may or may not have had to reload some. Haven't won more than a couple bets at most, anyway.

Table is loose and a little more aggressive pf than average for these games (maybe 8% pfr, largely due to this guy and two like-minded compadres), generally passive post flop.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.00 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.00 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises...

If he just calls, there's a good chance that this is for value -- not really worried about pushing him off a worse hand given how often he shows down. I'm also thinking about the likelihood of having to deal with these sorts of shots (often against this very Villain) and not having much attention to spare for anything other than varying my play between a few standard lines. However, on the other hand I'm not very likely to push him off a PP or 8 or any draw, so I give myself next to no bluff equity unless I'm misreading Villain.

So what do we think? Is my AK goot often enough or is this pure spewage?

istewart

11-13-2005, 06:36 PM

Given what you said, I really don't like it at all. If he's not capable of folding jacks or tens here, why would you pull this check/raise on the worst turn card for you in the deck?

irishpint

11-13-2005, 06:48 PM

not good. not good at all- he's not folding and you're behind.

detruncate

11-13-2005, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given what you said, I really don't like it at all. If he's not capable of folding jacks or tens here, why would you pull this check/raise on the worst turn card for you in the deck?

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that the worst card?

11-13-2005, 07:02 PM

only card worse that I see is Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

detruncate

11-13-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
not good. not good at all- he's not folding and you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be behind. I might not be. He raises pf with any Ace, most Ks, most pairs, most paint. I'm operating under the assumption that AK is good a significant % of the time to a draw or a whiff. I'll also end up putting 2 bets into the pot at least sometimes and don't have a problem folding to a 3-bet.

yellowjack

11-13-2005, 07:05 PM

Being OOP, it's much better to calldown. If he calls the C/R you have to check-call the river praying he's got nothing. If you were in position, I don't see much harm in raising the turn (with possibly the best hand) for a free showdown, while betting the river if an A/K hits.

detruncate

11-13-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Being OOP, it's much better to calldown. If he calls the C/R you have to check-call the river praying he's got nothing. If you were in position, I don't see much harm in raising the turn (with possibly the best hand) for a free showdown, while betting the river if an A/K hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's usually more appropriate in position. This is certainly not a typical play. I intended to check/fold UI if the board got scarier, and either bet/fold or check/call a blank.

I was interested if anyone thought the combination of reasons justified an unorthodox play that didn't seem likely to be hugely -EV in any case -- possible value, metagame considerations (in general and specifically against someone I'm likely to play more hands against). Consensus so far seems to be "spewage".

yellowjack

11-13-2005, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I intended to check/fold UI if the board got scarier, and either bet/fold or check/call a blank

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure the board isn't scarier. A lot more hands with medium cards beat us now. Also, you decided to c/r instead of any of those lines.

I don't think this is bad if you know villain is going to be sitting long enough so that you'll have a few more shots at him. The problem is that he could leave at any time; were you referring to future sessions with him?

You also mentioned he has 20 BB behind him, so others may pick him off before you get the chance to again and he may not reload. This is again, assuming you are talking about playing future hands with him this session. For these reasons, I don't see how deviating from standard play is helping us.

In a live 2/4 game if villain had +$200, then losing ~$4 of EV might be worth the ~$8-12 (raises & re-raises by villain having a marginal hand) of EV you pick up from villain playing back at you while you have a great hand.

detruncate

11-13-2005, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a live 2/4 game if villain had +$200, then losing ~$4 of EV might be worth the ~$8-12 (raises & re-raises by villain having a marginal hand) of EV you pick up from villain playing back at you while you have a great hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt I lose an entire BB here. There's a reasonable chance that Villain is drawing, and I often have pair outs when behind.

It seems to come down to benefits over and above the value bet potential (which I agree is questionable on its own). There are 3 guys who love to bet and raise pf. Most raised pots end up with multiple pf aggressors since a couple of the aggros usually find reasons to get involved. I'm going to be playing straight forwardly, which means a lot of folding -- like a lot of people, I tend not to push small edges when I'm playing lots of tables.

So this is multitabling question as much as anything. It's all about compromises. Do we make a play which has questionable value on its own to try to slow down the aggressive players we'll be up against most of the time on that table? Bear in mind that we won't have much attention to spare to really think through marginal plays. I'm generally a fan of encouraging overly aggressive players to be even more aggressive, but it might be better for us if they play a bit more passively post flop in this case. Aggressive players tend to pay a little more attention than the average bear... but that's not necessarily saying much.

We talk quite a bit about adjusting our play based on table conditions and such, but don't talk much about the sort of adjustments that might help maximize our profit potential when we're aggressively multitabling (and dealing with the inherent attention deficit). It's been a while since I've played more than 4 tables and this hand made me think about subtle changes I might make when I'm spread more thinly than that.

detruncate

11-13-2005, 11:00 PM

The Q obviously wasn't a great card for me, but given the wide range of hands that Villain might have been on it wasn't nearly as disastrous as it would have been vs a more reasonable player.

For what it's worth, Villain called the turn c/r with AJo, then called the river UI even after a K hit. And I don't think it's worth a whole lot -- I don't love the position I put myself in UI on the river OOP given my superficial read.

Not a great time for this sort of play. I was part way there (I had an opponent I kind of liked my hand against), but position and/or a more benign board would have made the situation considerably better -- yes, he's more likely to find a reason to call when behind on a drawy board, but this guy didn't seem to need much convincing. I'm also not sold on the idea that I get much (or any) extra value via advertising.

I'll be much more selective if I make this sort of move again. Thanks for the comments.