Blind Steal? (hypothetical)

[scotty34]

It is folded to you on the button with a hand in the lower end of your blind stealing range, say Q9o or 67s for example. Both blinds are very loose and will probably defend with about 80-90% of their hands.

It's been drilled into me to basically never open-limp in SH play, especially on the button. I really don't know if I can see much added value in a raise in this situation however. You are building a big pot with a marginal hand that has little or no showdown value UI. You have pretty well no folding equity from the blinds. If checked to on the flop, you have a much better chance of picking up the pot when you bet. If they bet into you and you missed the flop, it is very easy to get away from your hand.

Is a call here really that bad? Discuss the merits of both options (or folding).

I see these stealing hands as marginal enough already and made worthless by the loss of fold equity. I don't play them.

Blinds this loose can't have great postflop skills, though. Maybe that could be enough for a good player to make these hands marginally +EV.

[scotty34]

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I see these stealing hands as marginal enough already and made worthless by the loss of fold equity. I don't play them.

Blinds this loose can't have great postflop skills, though. Maybe that could be enough for a good player to make these hands marginally +EV.

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These types definetly have an edge when in position playing against two poor players with random hands. I have no doubt that it is +EV to play these. Why I should raise instead of simply limp is not clear to me though.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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These types definetly have an edge when in position playing against two poor players with random hands. I have no doubt that it is +EV to play these. Why I should raise instead of simply limp is not clear to me though.

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It depends on their postflop weakness(es). A few examples:

-If they are very weak-tight your pot equity (due to folding equity on later streets) is higher than 33% and you want the pot as big as possible and you raise.
-If they are very loose-passive your profit comes from bets they put in later when they are behind, and seeing the flop is just an investment to come into this situation. Then you want to keep this investment as cheap as possible (since you are less than 33% likely to win the pot), and limping is the best way.

[Noodles]

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If they are very weak-tight your pot equity (due to folding equity on later streets) is higher than 33% and you want the pot as big as possible and you raise.


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only if they are weak tight that means if the call the raise it is with a better hand,
if they are loose you cant steal the blinds,

i dont like always comments in poker such as "always open raise," i limp in these spots with hands that are a bit too good to fold but not good enough to steal with,

i tihnk slansky goes over this in HPFAP

OK, Ill give it try.

You raise pre-flop to set up the steal on the flop. After you raise, loose-passives, and even some lags, are much more likely to check to you and more likely to fold after you bet. Since you raised, they will be less likely to try a steal of their own on on the flop, so it's more likely that they have a hand if they do bet and you give the hand up more easily.

If they'r really passive, you might get afree look at the river & a free showdown. Even though the pf raise & flop continuation is standard, betting out after you limp still looks like a lame steal attempt.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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If they are very weak-tight your pot equity (due to folding equity on later streets) is higher than 33% and you want the pot as big as possible and you raise.


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only if they are weak tight that means if the call the raise it is with a better hand,
if they are loose you cant steal the blinds,

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I was speaking about weak-tight <u>postflop</u> . There is quite a few players that like to see the flop from the blinds but give up their defence easily afterwards.

[Victor]

this exact situation is discussed in hepfap and it ok to fine to limp if both players are super loose and will not fold. although, i think q9o has enough equity to warrant a raise. your point is still valid.