KK against chip leader

[private joker]

Middle stages of a live MTT... 2 tables left and I'm one of the bigger stacks with t2350 (after posting). Blinds are 50/100.

Two loose, bad players limp in EP and MP. An aggressive player who is also the chip leader at the table and has me covered by a significant amount raises to t300 in the CO.

Folded to me in the BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I make it t1000 to go. Limpers fold, and the CO calls.

Flop comes down A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

What's my line? Check-folding seems weak, allowing any hand to bet me out. But what is he raising and calling t1000 with that's not QQ or a big A? Should I make a feeler bet and fold to a raise?

And how's my preflop?

[whiskeytown]

I don't know about feeler bets - I think anything less then a pot sized bet here will look or smell like fear.

RB

I think if you are going to go and raise about half your stack preflop, you better be prepared to stick around, for better or worse.

As far as hands that call there, AK, AQ, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 if he is a tight player, and if he is loose, I wouldn't be suprised to see Ax, any pair, JTs+.

I think he holds a lower pair than you have. But he could be holding a weak ace to. I would push this flop if I had a tight image myself.
Whats your image? This is a very tricky flop. But if he is this aggressive wouldnt he push with a strong ace like AK or AQ preflop? Has he pushed any hands preflop before? Will be nice to hear what others day. I think your preflop play is just fine.

I think the "feeler" bet is probably your best option. Bet about half the pot and see what happens. Since he's the chip leader, if he has ace-anything he'll probably call your push. But if you bet out half the pot you are not only giving yourself a chance to fold if he comes over the top, but if he just calls it with ace-small you are getting to see the turn the cheapest way possible probably. This gives you a chance to hit your set or a backdoor straight.

The pot is t2250 by my reckoning and you have t1350. A bet of half the pot is therefore a push anyway and a small feeler bet will just be weak to the chip leader. It's check or push time. I think I'm checking.... but i hate having to do it!

I like to think, what would I do with an Ace? And with the stacks as they are, I'm already feeling pretty committed, so I check, and hope he bluffs at it, pushing me all in.

I do the same here, and still call.

[prayformojo]

How big is his stack? He's chip leader, but by how much? If he would be crippled after losing this hand, I'm pushing it. If he's not completely inept you might fold out a weak ace. Ah hell, I'm probably pushing it anyway.

[Blindcurve]

How many chips does the chip leader have? Mostly I'm curious as to whether or not he's pot committed.

I think if you raise 1/2 your stack, you may have to be prepared to push any flop. Certainly, if the chip leader has only spent a small fraction of his stack calling your raise, you push representing an ace. The problem is you are most likely only getting a call if you're beaten. I think I have to check/fold, because I can't make any significant move at the pot without crippling myself.

Bearing the above in mind, since you have two limpers and a raiser, and you can't really allow an ace to catch a flop, I vote for a push preflop. It's overkill with 20 BB's in your stack, but it does two things. One, it almost certainly folds your opponents, and you pick up 5 blinds or 25% of your stack. Two, if big stack calls with anything less than AA he is making the biggest mistake possible. He is almost certainly behind at the moment, and if he could see your hand, without holding AA, he would fold.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't know how right or wrong this may be, but after sticking in half my stack in preflop i'm not folding.

[renodoc]

Meh. I sure like the push preflop here. Avoids the situation completely. Then again, I am a donkey.

Actually, I am beginning to really appreciate the difference that the buyin and player quality has on decisions like this. In a smaller money game, the aggro chip leader isnt going to fold a weak ace here very often to a push on the flop, while in a bigger game he possibly could.

[tedtodd]

Knowing half your stack was in PF- he would certainly put u allin if he had anything worth racing with. This eliminates AK, AQ, AA, QQ, JJ, TT- or any pair for that matter???

If he only has 2 or 3 times your stack- i'm thinking highcards- possibly an ace. Fold in this situation- doubleup later.

If he was 7000+ in chips he could easily have JT, T9, 98s, 78s- and he was hoping you'd miss the flop and he could steal the pot. Push all-in.

[Blindcurve]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing half your stack was in PF- he would certainly put u allin if he had anything worth racing with. This eliminates AK, AQ, AA, QQ, JJ, TT- or any pair for that matter???

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessarily true. One, he may want to look at a flop and make sure an ace doesn't come down. Two, he may be slowplaying what he perceives to be a monster, whether it is or not. I don't think we can narrow his hand range that much just because he didn't set us in. Three, just because he knows half our stack is in doesn't mean this information has the same implications for him that it might have for you, or for me.


[ QUOTE ]

If he only has 2 or 3 times your stack- i'm thinking highcards- possibly an ace. Fold in this situation- doubleup later.

If he was 7000+ in chips he could easily have JT, T9, 98s, 78s- and he was hoping you'd miss the flop and he could steal the pot. Push all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, especially since OP's read is that he player has been aggressive. .

[freehat]

Don't fold, you are either WA/WB so I would just check-call off my chips.

Making a feeler bet makes no sense to me. You are in a pot with 2 weak players and an aggressive player. This is the worst time to make a feeler bet. You are not going to get any players with Ax off their hands, and might even get a raise from a weaker hand. Youll probobly have to lead the turn as well, when your most likley behind.

Its between check/calling and check/folding IMO ... but on this hand Im check/folding this. You will still have t1350 ... 13X bb, and plenty of wiggle room. Continuing on in this pot will/should cost you your whole stack ... in which your behind most of the time and only drawing to a 2 outer.

BTW, I wouldnt have gotten myself in a situation where i have 1/2 my stack in. Either flat call or make a bigger raise and getting it all in on the flop no matter what. If I were to raise, it would be to t1500, and Id get the last t850 or so in on the flop.

[Melchiades]

I think this is one of the situations someone (Jason?) posted about. All my chips are going in here. If he has AA,AK,AQ,QQ,77 and probably a weaker ace all his chips is going in as well. So we don't really need to consider how we would play against those hands. So what is important is how do you get JJ-99 KJ,QJ to put chips into this pot? Check, call. Pushing folds no better hands, check call might get chips out of worse hands.

[Blindcurve]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold, you are either WA/WB so I would just check-call off my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why if you're WA/WB you'd want to check/call your chips off. I thought if you had the slightest chance of folding your opponent you should take it here. If you're going to call anyway, why not bet in the rare case your opponent has a fold in him?

I'm asking- not arguing.

-D.

[Melchiades]

If you are way ahead he won't call a push no matter what, if you are way behind he wont fold to a push no matter what. Checking and calling might get a few of those way behind hands to try and bluff.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold, you are either WA/WB so I would just check-call off my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why if you're WA/WB you'd want to check/call your chips off. I thought if you had the slightest chance of folding your opponent you should take it here. If you're going to call anyway, why not bet in the rare case your opponent has a fold in him?

I'm asking- not arguing.

-D.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the point is, if he's the type to call a big reraise preflop with, for instance, A4, or AT, there's no way he's going to fold on the flop after hitting top pair (and obviously he's never folding AK here). so you may as well let him bluff JJ at you once you resign yourself to getting all your chips in anyway.

[private joker]

If it helps, the chip leader had around t2000 when the flop came down, and I did have t1350.

I considered pushing preflop, but that would have been a pretty massive overbet. Also, I did put in almost 1/2 my stack preflop, but if things get hairy, I figured I could get away from the hand and stay alive in the tourney.

The problem is, if I check, will JJ push here, and get me to lay down? How often will a worse hand bet this flop?

[private joker]

Results:

I checked, he put me all-in (oozing a lot of strength in his face), and I folded. He mercifully showed AQs and dragged the big pot, making him an even more dominant chip leader.

But I stayed alive and not only made it to the final table (short-stacked), but came in 3rd. It was a quite a comeback run.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
So what is important is how do you get JJ-99 KJ,QJ to put chips into this pot? Check, call. Pushing folds no better hands, check call might get chips out of worse

[/ QUOTE ]

you think he could have KJ,QJ?

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in a pot with 2 weak players and an aggressive player

[/ QUOTE ]
the 2 limpers folded pf

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
He is almost certainly behind at the moment, and if he could see your hand, without holding AA, he would fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

yea you want ax to call,if he has AA then so be it

[Noodles]

when i have KK and someone raises before me pf i almost always go all in,is this wrong?

I think the preflop raise was good but not if you are thinking of folding to any ace on a heads-up flop.

An ace flopped and that's a tough break, but there is no way you can put any more chips into this pot with a "feeler bet" and then fold. Very strong chance you are beat, but there is certainly a range of pocket pairs lower than QQ that you are way ahead of.

Unless you know a bit more about the other player to lay this down, I would commit myself to the pot here. But probably elect to c/c rather than push. The main reason is because while JJ-99 will fold to your push, it also may push to your check which is +EV. Also a weak player with a weak ace might let you escape with a few chips left (doubtful, but possible).

[Melchiades]

Not really. Have seen some early chipleaders play extremly loose and get lucky though. But thats just one in a hundred.