Playing for first

[Scuba Chuck]

Low buyin Pokerstars SNG

Hero: 3400
SB: 9000
BB: 1100

Blinds 200/400

Players are both very straightforward. Preflop, I called with the intention to folding to any SB action, but was willing to challenge shorty.

Preflop: Hero is dealt QJo (1 spade, 1 club)
Hero, limps, SB completes, BB raises to t1100 and is allin, hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (t3300) 9T3 ~ 2 spades
SB raises allin, hero calls...

Thoughts on all streets appreciated

[bluefeet]

Personally, I wouldn't mind taking this PF vs. shortie. I haven't run the numbers, but I'd suspect open-pushing is on the + side.

Depending on your relationship with SB, I find at times a simple raise - large enough to put shortie in will often be met with cooperation from SB. Of course if SB is solid/smart/etc., he could push back with plenty of hands before BB committs himself.

For this reason, I think open-pushing is the way to go. But having said that, I think you'd be suprised at SB's willingness to let you mop up.

Edit: Given the limp, I think calling SB's push is fine. Despite shortie throwing in the rest of his chips in PF, it's not entirely certain you are even trailing him here on the flop. With SB merely completing PF, you stand to have as many as 14 clean outs, not including your backdoor FD. With the few chips you have remaining, your remaining equity with a fold doesn't provide a much improved chance of finishing 1st regardless - especially if BB takes this down in your absence.

[bluef0x]

Open pushing is +$EV pretty solidly if there tight to loose. Maniac and it's +0.1%. If you've been quiet recently or they have been folding to raises a lot, I push.

Given the way you played it, ~2.5-1 on the flop with an OESD, backdoor flushdraw, overcard outs that may be good, the chance to get HU with a small chiplead, I'm calling SB. Oh, and I'd push pf.

[durron597]

Preflop I think a push is more standard but I don't hate your line, if you think the SB is a loose caller.

Postflop is clear.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Open pushing is +$EV pretty solidly if there tight to loose. Maniac and it's +0.1%. If you've been quiet recently or they have been folding to raises a lot, I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I appreciate the advice, and I know this stuff. My point of this post is to discuss how I played it. I often change gears ITM. I don't care to pushbot here.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open pushing is +$EV pretty solidly if there tight to loose. Maniac and it's +0.1%. If you've been quiet recently or they have been folding to raises a lot, I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I appreciate the advice, and I know this stuff. My point of this post is to discuss how I played it. I often change gears ITM. I don't care to pushbot here.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Edit: Given the limp, I think calling SB's push is fine. Despite shortie throwing in the rest of his chips in PF, it's not entirely certain you are even trailing him here on the flop. With SB merely completing PF, you stand to have as many as 14 clean outs, not including your backdoor FD. With the few chips you have remaining, your remaining equity with a fold doesn't provide a much improved chance of finishing 1st regardless - especially if BB takes this down in your absence."

I know these edits get lost in the threads...for your consideration

[bluef0x]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I appreciate the advice, and I know this stuff. My point of this post is to discuss how I played it. I often change gears ITM. I don't care to pushbot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my post was more towards bluefeet's "haven't ran the numbers"

I think calling the push is fine. You have a lot of outs and I'm sure you gain some EV because of a higher percent of the times SB is knocked out when you do in fact call.

[Scuba Chuck]

Here are my thoughts:

Preflop: If I was the big blind, and biggie had folded, and I was facing an allin from shortie, I would be calling with this hand. On the other hand, if I limp here, bigstack pushes, and shortie folds, this is an easy fold. From an $EV equity standpoint, I don't think I lose anything, in fact, I might even gain (although likely miniscule).

Preflop (the way it played out): Once bigstack just completed, I felt good that his hand was not great. Once shortie pushed, I figured shortie had a top 20% hand or so. Pockets, strong aces, two big broadway cards. He wanted to get the most value out of his hand. I called. Bigstack's call to me suggested that his hand was probably in the top 50% or so. I guess I don't see him calling with 47o, but I can see him calling with a lot of suited cards, broadway cards, weak aces, etc.

Flop: His flop bet identified to me one of his hole cards. At this point I figured his cards to be JT, QT, or KT. I figured AT was out as he would likely have raised that hand preflop. There's a small chance he has 8T or 7T if they're sooooted. There's also a small chance he has 9x.

So now what? There's t3300 in dead chips. If I am correct in assuming shortie now has a small probability in winning, making this call with 11 clean outs, and 3 potentially dirty, gives me about 2.8:1 pot equity and 2 cards to come. 2200 to win 5500 seems good to me. Furthermore, I didn't think my chances of taking first by folding here was any better than this chance right here.

[bones]

http://orig.app.com/appnflpg/021027BrownsJets/images/jet1027h.jpg

[valenzuela]

preflop: PUSH unless ure one-tabling. Pushing QJ is profitable but it might not be the best play.
flop: you have 15 outs on the flop.( I count backdoor flushes as an extra out) and like 2-1 pot odds.
I cant believe u actually posted this, it looks like such an obvious call to me, am I missing something?

[lacky]

I like your thinking the whole way. There is no need to push this preflop.

This is the bad play you should be fold before the flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your thinking the whole way. There is no need to push this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

TY

[valenzuela]

yep, anyway pushing is more practical because hes probably multitabling.

[Scuba Chuck]

I had to turn off the "ignore this user" button for you to read your comments. What a waste of 60 seconds.

[UMTerp]

I didn't read this whole thread, so this may or may not pertain to the hand in question, but I wanted to make a little editorial comment here:

I hate the whole "playing for first" concept, and I think it's a catchphrase that's overused on this board to rationalize some marginally bad aggressive plays. You should always be "playing for" +$EV, no matter what "place" that puts you in.

[tewall]

I'm curious as to why you think limping would be more +EV then open pushing. Your giving up a lot by letting go of the fold equity you have, which I'm know you're aware of; so you must have thought it was worth giving this up to gain something else, which must be to watch what happens before you commit to a plan. But I just can't imagine that the knowledge you gain here would be worth the fold equity you give up.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I had to turn off the "ignore this user" button for you to read your comments. What a waste of 60 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]
next time just hit the quote button. Its faster, but still leaves his comments just as useless.
I must admit that I am somewhat curious as to why he thinks it matters if you are one tabling. Faulty logic can be very interesting sometimes.

[caretaker1]

Looks good to me without the pushbot. Only difference, since you decided to call, maybe re-raise all-in pre-flop? The SB's limp after yours seems like weakness and the 400 dead chips would be nice.

$.02

[tewall]

If you're multi-tabling, it's more difficult to know the specifics of your opponents' play, is what he may have been thinking. Maybe there's some history I'm not aware of, but the comment seemed logical to me. You play in a straight-forward way that doesn't require as much thought, since you don't have as much time, when multi-tabling. That's how I took it.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read this whole thread, so this may or may not pertain to the hand in question, but I wanted to make a little editorial comment here:

I hate the whole "playing for first" concept, and I think it's a catchphrase that's overused on this board to rationalize some marginally bad aggressive plays. You should always be "playing for" +$EV, no matter what "place" that puts you in.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - that's precisely the reason why I used that in the title.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to why you think limping would be more +EV then open pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer to play poker right here, than to play russion roulette. EV calculates the possibility of running into a monster, and so be it. But limping gives me a lot of alternatives. I'm interested in the alternatives right here.

[ QUOTE ]

Your giving up a lot by letting go of the fold equity you have, which I'm know you're aware of; so you must have thought it was worth giving this up to gain something else, which must be to watch what happens before you commit to a plan. But I just can't imagine that the knowledge you gain here would be worth the fold equity you give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a plan, it either unfolds, or I fold.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me without the pushbot. Only difference, since you decided to call, maybe re-raise all-in pre-flop? The SB's limp after yours seems like weakness and the 400 dead chips would be nice.

$.02

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is a solid 2 cents.