How bad was this cold call

[mackthefork]

Given that I am sure it will be 5 handed, how bad is this cold call I made.

I have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button 6 handed 1/2 Absolute.

UTG has limped, MP raises, CO calls, I call, Big blind is ultra loose passive preflop.

Regards Mack

[lautzutao]

I don't think it's horrible, but I don't really like the call so much. I want a passive environment to play JTs, and you're not really getting that here...

[adsman]

You have a hand that loves multiway action and you have the button. Looks good to me.

[Vote4Pedro]

I like it

[numeri]

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You have a hand that loves multiway action and you have the button. Looks good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup.

[Stealthy]

I don't like this cold-call much. The only time I will make it is if the table is very agro post-flop with lots of raising on every street. Also if the raisor has raised a lot of pots I might be tempted as the risk of domination is lessened. 95% of the time this is a fold for me though. I am tighter than most at 6 Max so others may be happy to play it.

[Vote4Pedro]

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The only time I will make it is if the table is very agro post-flop with lots of raising on every street

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What? Why? I'm thinking the exact opposite

[numeri]

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The only time I will make it is if the table is very agro post-flop with lots of raising on every street

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What? Why? I'm thinking the exact opposite

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Implied odds maybe? If the table is passive or weak/tight, we might not make up enough post-flop.

I really don't mind either way. If there's one aggressive player and a bunch of callers, we can pump strong draws and drag some huge pots when we hit. If it's passive, we get more free cards. Seems cool either way.

Looks fine by me. based on your read, you're getting 4:1. If it was T9s, we can probably toss it.

[Stealthy]

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The only time I will make it is if the table is very agro post-flop with lots of raising on every street

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What? Why? I'm thinking the exact opposite

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Purely for the implied odds angle if I flop something real nice. JT is not my favourite hand for doing this as it hits so many flops but often giving you just marginal hands. If I flopped a Jack here even if it is the highest card on the board I don't fancy it much if there is a lot of laggy action. I am looking for straight and flush possibilities here more than any dubious high card strength. I prefer the occasional call here with hands like 89s - 45s or any PP as they are easy to play after the flop as they are good flop it or drop it hands in muti-ways.

[lautzutao]

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The only time I will make it is if the table is very agro post-flop with lots of raising on every street

[/ QUOTE ]
What? Why? I'm thinking the exact opposite

[/ QUOTE ]
Implied odds maybe? If the table is passive or weak/tight, we might not make up enough post-flop.

I really don't mind either way. If there's one aggressive player and a bunch of callers, we can pump strong draws and drag some huge pots when we hit. If it's passive, we get more free cards. Seems cool either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to be able to pump this draw given our position relative to the raiser. We'll have only one player trapped that'll be calling a possible 3-bet raise(which he might not want to do) and we'll probably fold out UTG. So it could only be us, the super-loose/passive BB and the preflop raiser seeing the turn. I don't want to pump here if that's the case...

The free card is certainly a possibility, but I don't know enough about the preflop raiser to count on that occuring.

A lot of ifs need to occur for this draw to work out...and that's only if we do get our draw to begin with, and then it's still a draw. It's not like a set which is made when the flop comes.

I either want to limp with this hand preflop on the button, or be the one raising it preflop so I can see a free turn card. Not coldcalling...

[numeri]

Lau,

We don't know exactly how the action went, but it certainly looks like BB and UTG will both be in with us. If we have a strong draw, we can bet into the PFR and call his raise. It may be marginal, but that's enough of a pump for me. We then have options on the turn.

I think we're seeing the turn at least 3-handed a majority of the time here regardless of the actions of the PFR.

Either way it's a marginal play. I'm fine with it. And I CC T9s here as well. Of course, when I looked through my 10k hands at 1/2 6-max, I've had 1 opportunity like this. (Flopped the nut straight, too. Yay for results-oriented thinking! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

[adsman]

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Of course, when I looked through my 10k hands at 1/2 6-max, I've had 1 opportunity like this. (Flopped the nut straight, too. Yay for results-oriented thinking! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

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You luckbox. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lautzutao]

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Lau,

We don't know exactly how the action went, but it certainly looks like BB and UTG will both be in with us. If we have a strong draw, we can bet into the PFR and call his raise. It may be marginal, but that's enough of a pump for me. We then have options on the turn.

I think we're seeing the turn at least 3-handed a majority of the time here regardless of the actions of the PFR.

Either way it's a marginal play. I'm fine with it. And I CC T9s here as well. Of course, when I looked through my 10k hands at 1/2 6-max, I've had 1 opportunity like this. (Flopped the nut straight, too. Yay for results-oriented thinking! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

We can't bet into a PFR if we're on the button...

And if we're seeing the turn 3-handed(if we see the turn at all) we are wasting money "pumping" because we wont have the equity to do so. So we'll be calling down until we hit our flush or straight.

I guess calling here is a matter of personal preference and dependant on game conditions. But I see 6-max as more aggressive, and hands like JTs don't really care for them. Maybe this game has the right set of conditions to do it, but I think you're saving money here in the long run by folding this down for 2 bets preflop. I'll stick to my set farming for speculative hands in these spots /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[numeri]

Ah yes. Don't know why I missed that.

Regardless, if we have a flush draw, it's still +EV to see the turn 3-handed - especially in position. If we just call the flop with a strong draw, that's also a +EV decision.

I don't blame anyone for dropping it, though. It's one of those very close decisions. A call means you have to play well postflop.

[shabamgoddam]

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A call means you have to play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ] that sums it up nicely.

[lautzutao]

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A call means you have to play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ] that sums it up nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sums what up nicely? It isn't exactly hard to play a drawing hand on the button...the question is whether or not the preflop call is "good" or "bad", worth playing postflop at all. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, that's why we have the discussion on it.

I wasn't gonna say anything because I don't want to sound like a troll, but that statement is pretty [censored] arrogant.

[ChuckyB]

I'd say 70/30 to cold-calling since three are already in (UTG will almost certainly call to close the betting). I'd love to see the flop 6-handed with this.

[numeri]

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A call means you have to play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ] that sums it up nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sums what up nicely? It isn't exactly hard to play a drawing hand on the button...the question is whether or not the preflop call is "good" or "bad", worth playing postflop at all. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, that's why we have the discussion on it.

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Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you (Lau) couldn't play this. I also didn't mean to say that I play well enough postflop to make this +EV. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I think it's a close decision, and I think the balance is how well you play after the flop in comparison to your opponents, and the particular opponents you're playing against. I think a fold is the right decision for someone who hasn't played much 6-max or short-handed in general.

(I almost wrote that a fold is +EV, but a fold is always 0 EV!)

[ArturiusX]

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Looks fine by me. based on your read, you're getting 4:1. If it was T9s, we can probably toss it.

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I'd be more inclined to call with T9s.

[Felipe]

i've read replies. ANd I think the call isn't bad. I think if you can see it multiway it's good fro you. And you have position.

Another poster mentioned they'd rather have an aggro game with JTs here. This is wrong because you'll hit the flop only rarely. You want to see the turn and river for few bets. A passive game will ensure you're not knocked out of the pot early.

i think the call is bad if you can't read your opponents well and your post flop play isn't optimal.

felipe

[mackthefork]

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A call means you have to play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ] that sums it up nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sums what up nicely? It isn't exactly hard to play a drawing hand on the button...the question is whether or not the preflop call is "good" or "bad", worth playing postflop at all. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, that's why we have the discussion on it.

I wasn't gonna say anything because I don't want to sound like a troll, but that statement is pretty [censored] arrogant.

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No offence would be taken here, I'm like the next guy I like to think I can play well post-flop, the reality is more likely that I play moderately well post-flop, and probably better than anyone on my table during this hand.

Anyway the flop was AQ9 with 2 hearts, and I only called when the preflop raiser bet (all called - 15.5 SB pot), I made the nuts on the turn (Kc - and got 2 more bets from two players - 13.75 BB pot), and on the river 6s came for a blank and I got 1 more bet from the two of them (18.5 BB pot less rake).

Thanks for the replys.

Regards Mack

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Given that I am sure it will be 5 handed, how bad is this cold call I made.

I have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button 6 handed 1/2 Absolute.

UTG has limped, MP raises, CO calls, I call, Big blind is ultra loose passive preflop.

Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

A read on the raiser would be nice. But even without a read, a coldcall is okay. Your position is very helpful and makes the coldcall better.