How to get into non-HE poker

[MikeRand2000]

Hey all -

I've gone through about 100 NLHE sit-n-gos and 10k LHE ring hands and would like to start learning a couple of other games. I realize that I have a lot to learn about HE but I'm just kind of interested in Stud and Omaha.

A couple of questions:

1) If I do start out in a new microlimit game, which of the following makes sense to start with?

Stud
Stud H/L
Omaha
Omaha H/L

One part of me says to learn Omaha because of its relative similarity to hold'em. Another part says to learn Stud so that I can learn how to evaluate exposed cards (and pot odds, etc.).

2) Would you recommend rotating between NLHE, LHE, and the new game as I learn? Or would you recommend puting NLHE and LHE on the shelf for a while while I focus on the new game?

Thanks,

Mike

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Pick one you think might fit your personality. For example (and all of these come from my own personal preferences)

Stud is as complex as Hold'em but will frustrate you because you get sucked out on far more than in HE.

Stud/8 is perhaps the most straightforward poker game, but skilled players enjoy the biggest edge here than any other limit game.

Limit Oamaha 8 is the intellectual equivalent of watching paint dry.

PLO is a great game if you are analytical, read people well, and have a good deal of gamble and risk tolerance.

Personally, I try to play all forms at some time. You learn more about strategy by varying the games you play. Ultimately, you want to be able to sit in the game where you have the biggest edge. The more games you play well, the more often you can exercise good game selection.

[Colonel Kataffy]

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One part of me says to learn Omaha because of its relative similarity to hold'em

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I would probably argue that Hold'em is closer to Stud than it is to O8, just because both stud and Hold'em reward agression much mores so than O8.

I went through a phase myself when I got tired of hold'em where I tried 8 tabling O8, and it was easy as hell to beat, but my god was it boring. For that more than any other reason, I reccomend stud as a change of pace.

[AKQJ10]

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[ QUOTE ]
One part of me says to learn Omaha because of its relative similarity to hold'em

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I would probably argue that Hold'em is closer to Stud than it is to O8, just because both stud and Hold'em reward agression much mores so than O8.

I went through a phase myself when I got tired of hold'em where I tried 8 tabling O8, and it was easy as hell to beat, but my god was it boring. For that more than any other reason, I reccomend stud as a change of pace.

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In fairness I gather that higher-limit O8 plays much more like hold'em (also Capelletti says this in his book, and one gets that impression from Zee as well), but your comment and the previous one on the thread certainly apply to low-limit O8. At low limits it's extremely mechanical, almost to a fault. I still like it, but I admit it's mechanical. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Pick one you think might fit your personality. For example (and all of these come from my own personal preferences)

Stud is as complex as Hold'em but will frustrate you because you get sucked out on far more than in HE.

Stud/8 is perhaps the most straightforward poker game, but skilled players enjoy the biggest edge here than any other limit game.

Limit Oamaha 8 is the intellectual equivalent of watching paint dry.

PLO is a great game if you are analytical, read people well, and have a good deal of gamble and risk tolerance.

Personally, I try to play all forms at some time. You learn more about strategy by varying the games you play. Ultimately, you want to be able to sit in the game where you have the biggest edge. The more games you play well, the more often you can exercise good game selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no stud expert but I thought the opposite was true. There are less suck outs. So you have less variance, less of a bankroll is required. I was under the impression that a stud expert can make more money an hour than a holdem expert if everything else is the same.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Stud is as complex as Hold'em but will frustrate you because you get sucked out on far more than in HE.

Stud/8 is perhaps the most straightforward poker game, but skilled players enjoy the biggest edge here than any other limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am no stud expert but I thought the opposite was true. There are less suck outs. So you have less variance, less of a bankroll is required. I was under the impression that a stud expert can make more money an hour than a holdem expert if everything else is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

well...

Lemme clear these right up...

-IMO, stud is quite a bit more complicated than holdem... there is no board or shared cards, so there is is far more information to watch and remember. The structure changes as the limits change, players relitive position changes throughout the play of a hand as well. There's another betting round as well....

-Because there is no board/ shared cards, hand domination doesn't come into effect.. so yes, there is more 'suckouts' in stud high than in HE. AK has KQ crushed in HE, but in stud, (JK)A isn't all that far ahead of (KQ)T, for example.

-Stud/8 (hi/lo 7 card, 8 high or better to qualify for low) is anything BUT straightforward. it's true that there are many standard situations in the game, but there is also a TON of different deceptive and tricky tactics available to the expert- much experience is required to play well. The experts do have a greater advantage in stud/8 than in almost any other limit game- NL and PL games favor the skilled players much more, though.

-About the variance in stud... At lower levels, in 7 stud and especially in stud 8, where players either don't know the game well or play very poorly (and many DO play TERRIBLY, up to about the $3/6 level online), stud has much less variance than hold em. I would be comfortable playing $2/$4 on a 150BB bankroll, for example. As the levels increse and the players know when to draw/fold/raise/etc, however, the variance skyrockets, waaaaay past LHE. for $5/10 and higher, I like to have 400BBs, minimum, in the 'ol roll. this is true for stud/8 as well, but for a different reason: the pots in stud/8 games will often get jammed/capped on later streets as players trap opponents, freeroll with the low locked up, or push big draws... Additionally, in both forms, the players at middle limits tend to be poker PLAYERS, not the gambling-happy dabblers that populate many HE games...

-As for earning potential... it's true that a profitable player can have a higher +BB/100hands winrate at stud than HE, O/8, etc, but LHE is far more profitable, for two big reasons- A: stud plays slower, so there is less hands/hr, and B: it's difficult to impossible to play more than two tables of stud well online- remembering the dead cards is far too difficult to four table profitably at anything higher than micro limits.


I would heartily encourage anybody bored with, burnt out on, or just done with Hold'em to give stud a shot. learning other games will improve ALL of a players games, as different skills are emphasized in different games and transfer between them. Playing stud greatly improved my hand reading skills in HE, for example.

try SuperSystem2 for a good overveiw, or if you've studied ToP, get 7CSFAP or HLSP, both by Ray Zee.

Of course, the best place to learn stud games is right here, on the stud forum. the players there tend to be more insightful, enthusiastic, helpful, and just plain better than on any other board on 2+2, IMHO. Join in!


GL.


B

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not true. In stud, with both players having independent boards, the trailing hand almost always has enough outs to warrant chasing. In fact, while folding on the turn is often correct in HE, folding on 6th in stud high to a single bet is almost always wrong.

Let's say you have split Kings and you're confident your opponent has split aces and the play of the hand convinces you that he has not made aces up by 6th street, Depending on how live your cards are, you have between 4 and 12 outs to improve(assuming no str8 or flush draws), and you'll only have to call one more bet on the river.

Read 7CSFAP.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]

I went through a phase myself when I got tired of hold'em where I tried 8 tabling O8, and it was easy as hell to beat, but my god was it boring. For that more than any other reason, I reccomend stud as a change of pace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Working as a house painter years ago, sometimes there was no work that could be done until a coat of primer cured... i literally had to watch paint dry.

I'd trather do that than 8-table micro limit O/8 again; try stud.

[Cooker]

I play a bit of LHE, NLHE, PLO, PLO8, and LO8 with occasional 7 stud mixed in as well (not too often). I would recommend PLO for the simple reason that learning to read the board will not be such a hassle. With so much holdem, you can already quickly identify the nuts and what draws are out on every street. With 3 hidden cards on the end in stud someone can be full (or have quads) without a pair showing (once I started off rolled up and hit quads on the river with a very unfrightening board of 4T3K rainbow). Also, I find PLO to be much more profitable than any other game I play beside PLO8, because so many holdem players try to make the transition and grossly overvalue hands like TPTK and such. The players are just so terrible it is pretty easy to clean up if you have read a book like Ciaffone's Omaha Holdem Poker or NL and PL poker by Ciaffone and Reuben. The same is true with 7 stud and reading Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players, but the ride is a much bigger roller coaster (at least for me). As for the high low split games, I like them as well, but I would start off with a high only version until you get the hang of things. Reading lows takes another level of getting used to.

As for how much to play each game, just remember, the less you play something the worse you will get at it. I have been playing mostly PLO and PLO8 lately since I like the games and find them more profitable than LHE and NLHE. Lately I went back to NLHE to clear some bonuses quicker (Omaha games play much slower than HE even online and it is now harder to find good games on the former party skins) and have had to relearn some tough lessons.

[gergery]

I think you should pick a game that fits your personality and objectives.

Omaha 8 is more mathematically and analytically oriented, and places less emphasis on situational hand reading. It’s relatively easier to learn and become a solid winner vs. other games. After you are proficient, it can become less interesting precisely because the math dominates correct decisions moreso than reading hands. Bluffing is less important, and aggression is less important. You can play way more tables than Stud. The difference between expert-midlevel is probably lower in O8 than other games.

PLO is more an action game. Playing loosely is punished less in this game than many others. Position is very important, semi-bluffing is key, and the variance can be very high.

PLO8 is a good mix of both of the above. Position and analytics are key, but there is room for creativity.

I know less about the Stud games, but clearly your earn rate should be lower there since you can’t multi-table given you need to remember cards. So if money is a key objective, Stud may not be best. I do think HE is more similar to Omaha since both are flop games, so if learning something “different-er” is important Stud might be better. With the added complexity, there is also likely more room for bigger gaps between good and average players, so if you really want to become an expert in your new game, Stud might be better.

-g

What ever happened to 5 card draw?

[AKQJ10]

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What ever happened to 5 card draw?

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Long story short (keep in mind this is all before my time):
<ul type="square"> Not enough short-term luck is involved so fish dried up or migrated to games where luck played a bigger role.
California legalized "stud" games such as hold'em [sic.] in.... I wanna say 1987, but at any rate sometime in the late 80's/early 90's. Until then Gardena had been the capital of draw poker, usually jacks-or-better to open but also including lowball. After that everyone migrated to hold'em, especially led by the fish.
[/list]

Just my understanding, I hope to get responses from those who were around in that day.

You can still play 5-draw on some sites: Paradise, UB I think, not sure what others.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Paradise has it.

[Tom Bayes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What ever happened to 5 card draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Long story short (keep in mind this is all before my time):
<ul type="square"> Not enough short-term luck is involved so fish dried up or migrated to games where luck played a bigger role.
California legalized "stud" games such as hold'em [sic.] in.... I wanna say 1987, but at any rate sometime in the late 80's/early 90's. Until then Gardena had been the capital of draw poker, usually jacks-or-better to open but also including lowball. After that everyone migrated to hold'em, especially led by the fish.
[/list]

Just my understanding, I hope to get responses from those who were around in that day.

You can still play 5-draw on some sites: Paradise, UB I think, not sure what others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a big five-card draw fan even though I wasn't around in the "good old days" of California draw/lowball. Draw was the only poker game that was legal to spread in California for many years, based on a quirky ruling that games with no exposed cards were games of skill but games with exposed cards were not.

One thing I like about draw is that you are usually a bigger favorite when you get your money in than you are in games like holdem or PLO (i.e. it's less likely the fish will draw out on you). Bad players don't like the game for this reason.

Draw also rewards being "tight" more than most other games. It's usually wrong to chase draws. A problem with draw is that a game among a table of players that are all "tight-aggressive" will have little action.

Online draw puts a greater emphasis on figuring out your opponent's betting patterns and drawing patterns than other games since you can't rely on physical tells online and you don't get to see any part of his hand like you can in stud games or flop games. Once you've played with a group for a while, you know who to fold 2 pair against and who to re-raise with the same hand, who always has trips when he draws 2 and who never has trips when he draws 2.

Anyone who wants to dabble in online draw should read this article: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=13413&amp;m_id=69

If you want to get serious about 5 card draw, the standard books are Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball by Mason Malmuth (2+2 obviously), SuperSystem I (chapter by Mike Caro), and Winning Poker Systems by Norman Zadeh (find it used at Amazon or E-Bay).

As mentioned, there are several places online to play draw. Planet has the softest games and microlimits-most players there are either rocks or calling stations. Usually only very small games are going, if any. A decent player for a draw newbie to start, but you can't always get a game /images/graemlins/frown.gif

The other sites have more action but most start at the $1/$2 level. 24h has a decent amount of PL action at lower limits, especially during the European evening. They also play as high as €5/€10 and €10/€20 PL there, but that's not a place for a beginner to go. The $1/$2 limit games at Paradise and PokerRoom aren't very tough (although I haven't played at Paradise in several months).

Paradise: Limit cash games
PokerRoom: Limit and PL cash games, PL tournaments
Planet: Limit and PL cash games (usually only 1 micro-limit games going), Limit/PL/NL tournaments (small)
24h/other B2B sites: PL cash games, PL tournaments, PL SNGs
Canbet/other Boss sites: Limit cash games

We sometimes talk about five-card draw (and other games like lowball, triple draw, pineapple and badugi/padooki) in the Other Poker forum.

[dandy_don]

Microlimit stud is nothing like small to mid limit stud. If you sit at a table that has 50-60% seeing 4th street every hand, someone will draw out to a big hand with even the worst starting hands. When you can raise 2 bets and 4 players call, you need to find another table or higher limits.

Also, watch out for the ante structure; Paradise has a $.5/$1.00 no ante stud game that should be played real tight (good for learning). The Paradise higher games along with Prima and Stars stud tables have a low-to-medium ante for most games that is best played tight (but not quite as tight as Paradise's no ante game). On the other hand, Party's $.5/$1 game has a $.25 ante (I think) that is extremely high that should be played loose and will have a wild variance. The tight games fit my style so I play mostly at Paradise, Prima and Stars.

I recommend playing stud HI for a while before diving into H/L.

Come jump in the Stud forum; we have a great group of very wise players that enjoy teaching others the game with very little flaming. Post a few hands for discussion and I promise you'll get some of the best advice around.