4-bet 2+2'er with AQo

[bad beetz]

AJ's $15/$30.

I am in two-chip SB with AcQh. Player UTG straddles. Folded to Ulysses on button who three bets (he would do this with any 2 cards over ten, any pair.) I four bet. Straddler folds?!?!?!?, heads up.

Flop comes J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I don't know if I have a heart but I'm pretty sure I do but I'm not going to check unless there's a turn raise. I bet, he calls.

Turn comes [J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif][7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

I bet, he calls.

River comes another small heart

I bet, he calls.


who likes the preflop 4-bet?

J.A. sucker had me pretty convinced I should just lay it down.

[hot tub man # 1]

I think the 4 bet is fine because you know the 3 bettor will try try isolate many more hands because of the stradle. your hand is too strong to give up and capping is a far better play then calling.

On the flop, I check my hand for a heart. Im not sure why people are so worried about doing this when 3 to a suit comes. He likely isnt going to get much a read from you anyway. I would bet the flop regardless of wether or not I had a heart.

On the turn, if you dont have a nice rounded red card in the hole, I would just check behind and hope for a free showdown on the river. I could see the argument for betting anyway when the fourth suited card hits, because the pot has gotten very large, and there is a chance you could get him to fold if has a pocket pair without a heart, but I think he is calling you down anyway in this spot. I give it up without the heart.

[rtrombone]

If Ulysses really would 3-bet a live straddler with the hands you've listed, you probably have him beat. He has position, but your hand is way too good. I'm interested in JAS' reasons for laying this one down.

[Dynasty]

4-betting is good. You will have the better hand a majority of the time.

[CrackerZack]

The straddle does little to change this, basically, the button open-raised the blinds, you have AQo, I'd 3-bet (or 4-bet in this case) everytime.

[bad beetz]

Sucker's reasoning was this:

yes, you PROBABLY had the best hand. However, he has position and is also skilled which mitigates any minor advantage in preflop hand strength. He recommended just mucking it and moving on.

I think it's close.

4-betting is better because that way I get to play the hand and playing hands is fun.

[34TheTruth34]

You're really just reraising, not four-betting. I know what I think when I see a live straddle: "please give me something to raise with". You know a good player like Ulysses is looking for any excuse to raise, so re-raising is not only solid, but the only way to play the hand I think.

By the way, I've noticed a lot of live straddles lately with the straddler not reraising when it comes back to him. What's up with that? If you've come to gamble, then gamble all the way, I say...

[bruce]

It' close, but I would lean towards folding because of my
poor position and the unlikelyhood of it being a headsup
pot, although that wasn't the case. If my image at the time was good than I might play the hand.

Bruce

[J.A.Sucker]

For those who want to know my rationale for folding it, here it is:

1. What kind of hand does Ulysses have? I understand that there's a straddler in the game, but he doesn't have a total piece of crap. I'd expect to see something like a pocket pair, a suited A, 2 broadway cards, or decent suited connectors, say 78s or better. You love it if he has a hand with a Q or an A, but the pot is so huge that he's could be sticking around to hit his kicker for the minimum price, while charging you the maximum if he gets lucky. If he has a pair or broadway cards that don't match yours, I like his chances. Even if he has 78s or the like, he's hardly in a bad spot.

2. The straddler will cause a lot of the hand to play itself, and Ulysses gets to act after him, while you don't. Ironically, by 4 betting preflop, you are obligated to bet out the flop; if you don't Ulysses will likely smell the slowplay. The straddler makes your betting out much more important, since he will sometimes raise (if he's a maniac), and this may protect your hand. This is good. However, this allows Ulysses to avoid getting priced into an (apparently) marginal, but actually bad situaiton where he's in big trouble. This is bad for you. Granted, criteria #2 indicates a slight play, but it's not the lock that you think it is.

3. Ulysses plays very well. I indicated this in the other points above, but it bears mention again. You've basically announced a big hand, Ulysses announced that he has position and an OK (or big) hand. You don't know which, and you won't until he bangs you over the head on the turn or river.

4. You're going to have to see the showdown if you expect to win. This will not be a hand folded on the turn, especially since the hand was 4 bet. The straddler will stick around with just about anything, and Ulysses will be there, lurking. Your hand has an A, which is potentially valuable to showdown, but I hate being out of position in these situations.

In all, it's close as I said. In fact, if you're going to play, calling might be better than 4 betting, because it might put the onus on Ulysses to bet the flop if you check. Now you can checkraise or even fold. This may allow you to getit headsup with Ulysses on the turn, and then win it there. Usually when you 4 bet with a marginal hand, it's to represent more strength than you actually have, and this works better when 4 bets is the cap, but here, you're actually going to tie in a player that you don't really want. 4 betting it is hardly a bad play, it probably just doesn't matter. Frankly, I'd just assume avoid the aggrevation of playing it, because playing hands where it feels like I'm going uphill isn't fun. At the very least, you're adding a lot of variance for not a lot of EV gain, but you may not even be there. I haven't even begun to think about bankroll considerations; if you've got a short bankroll folding is the way to go.

This is just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[jen]

I think you had an easy four-bet, although at the time, I thought you were kidding when you said that you couldn't remember if you had a heart. And I think you played it fine (if a bit overly zealous) given that you had a high heart.

[elindauer]

In my simple world, I don't see how you can conceive of laying this hand down. Let's look at the simplest strategy of just calling on preflop, and the folding unless you catch an A or a Q.

Now, you are going to be getting better than 2:1 for your money, but are only 2:1 against to improve. If you do catch an A or Q, you are going to be an tremendous favorite to win. Not only are you going to be a big favorite, but it is inconceivable that you won't get action if you do improve. As many have pointed out here, this hand is "destined" for the river.


In other words, the implied odds alone dictate that you *at least* call. You cannot fold. Now... whether to 4-bet, whether to continue on if you don't improve... these are all strategy decisions that may make the hand even more profitable. Even without these more sophisticated moves though, you should show a profit playing this hand.


-Eric

[Dynasty]

Your reasoning is very poor.

1. If he has a pair or broadway cards that don't match yours, I like his chances.

That's insane. AQo has a excellent edge against that range of hands. Against the pocket pairs, it's a small underdog. And it'll be hard for your opponent to play on if overcards to his pocket pair flop and you semi-bluff with an unimproved AQ. Against the broadway cards, which are more likely than a pocket pair, you're a more than 3:2 favorite.

Winning poker is partly taking advantage of small advantages like this.

Even if he has 78s or the like, he's hardly in a bad spot.

Forcing 87s putting in 4 bets before the flop against AQo is a huge advantage for you, especially heads-up. If the flop comes something like J, 6, 3 rainbow, your opponent is hardpressed to even call one bet on the flop. It's just too risky for him to assume he's drawing live to 6 pair outs when you could have an overpair to his cards.

3. You don't know which, and you won't until he bangs you over the head on the turn or river.

If Ulysses misses the flop, he's very likely to be semi-bluffed off a hand drawing live. He just can't continue on hoping that you've got an unimproved Ace-high.

4. You're going to have to see the showdown if you expect to win. This will not be a hand folded on the turn, especially since the hand was 4 bet.

I don't know why you think this. When somebody 4-bets me pre-flop, I am very likely to fold to a single flop bet when my KTo or 87s misses the flop. I'm also going to be very hard-pressed to continue on with 55 when the flop has two overcards and my opponent bets.

This is a hand I expect not to reach a showdown.

[Dynasty]

As many have pointed out here, this hand is "destined" for the river.

I don't know why people believe this. There are many hands I would 3-bet pre-flop with (87s, KTo, 55) that I could laydown for one bet on the flop after getting 4-bet pre-flop.

[skp]

Hell, there are hands that I 3 bet with and I lay down for one bet on the flop even when there has been no 4 bet preflop (granted, that usually does not occur when heads-up).

I agree with you: I don't see why it is said that this hand is destined for a showdown? The chap on the button 3 bet a straddler. He could have a lot of hands that he might fold on the flop. If he catches a pair on the flop, it is probably destined for a showdown or at least destined for the river card.

As for 4 betting preflop, I think it is the better play but it's close. The thing is that straddlers usually don't fold no matter how much it costs preflop. If the 4 bet has a chance of knocking off the straddler, then 4 betting is the much better play. In the usual case where the straddler ain't going nowhere, just calling the 3 bets (which in itself should cause the button to take notice) and then checkraising on the flop even with no help can sometimes be more effective in having the button let his hand go on the flop or turn. That sequence is more likely to tell the button that you either already had a big pair preflop or found help on the flop.

A 4 bet preflop is going to make the button think either big pair or big Ace. Then, when the flop comes, he will not change his read to enlarge the range of holdings you might have whereas if you just call 3 bets preflop and then checkraise on the flop, you will be harder to read. He will specifically not put you on a big Ace (where the flop comes with no Ace) and that can pay dividends i.e. you can bluff easier later in the hand when a straight card comes, a flush card comes etc. You can also checkraise his ass if the turn is an Ace or queen.

Sorry for the poorly drafted response. But I am too damn lazy to make it read easier.

[Lee Jones]

Yes, he probably has the best hand. Probably having the best hand preflop against a skilled opponent who has position on you from here on out - that seems like a bad situation.

Look, you've got Ulysses acting before you on 88% (90%?) of the hands. So you choose the other 12% to pick a fight?

I'll agree it seems close. And if you had AK or 99, I'd say 4-bet it and then get to a showdown. But this seems like asking for unnecessary trouble. Especially at AJ's where the BB is likely to wake up, and throw in a fifth bet as he hollers, "Gambo!" Actually, the much more likely chance was that the straddler was gonna do that. Now you've got AQo for five bets each in a three-way pot and you go first all the way out. Whoopee.

Regards, Lee

[J.A.Sucker]

All of your points would be valid if this were a headsup pot, but it's not. You have a guy who's going to stay around and see the river. This combination will make Ulysses' hands enter into play much more. You are talking about how much better a hand AQo is than Ulysses' hand in this spot, and I disagree. Note that I said that the play was close, but playing margins is something that winning players do with position, not with the SB. AQ is hardly a monster when up against most hands.

You cite a situation where the flop comes J, 6, 3 rainbow and I have 78s and it's one bet to me on the button. I'm gonna call every time here, and would be correct to do so, especially if I have even a backdoor flush draw. There are 13 SB in the pot preflop, then assume that the straddler calls, this is 15:1, and I close the action. Easy call.

A bigger problem is if the flop comes J, 6, 3 rainbow and you bet out as the SB, the straddler calls and Ulysses raises. Now what?

And if you don't think this hand will show down (bearing a scary-as-all-get-out board), then you need to play in these games to see it for yourself. People don't make moronic folds for 1 SB on the flop when they have anything to speak of on the flop. This is actually the best thing about playing in Vegas games; people make such atrocious folds on the flop. In this hand, they won't (the straddler wants to gamble, and Ulysses knows what he's doing).

[jen]

"The thing is that straddlers usually don't fold no matter how much it costs preflop."

Not in this case -- I was at this table when this hand occurred. The straddler is a solid mid-limit player. The table had been playing extremely tight for hours with pretty solid players for the most part, and the straddler (whom I have never seen straddle before, ever) said something to the effect of -- "let's see if we can get this table to loosen up". Although it was somewhat comical that he folded to a four-bet, I wasn't surprised by it at all.

[J.A.Sucker]

Lee, you are exactly right, but you were able to say it much better than me.

[bad beetz]

Whatup, cuz? I've never used a poll before.

[Dynasty]

Probably having the best hand preflop against a skilled opponent who has position on you from here on out - that seems like a bad situation.

That's absurd. Position is certainly important. But, I'll take the better hand every time and give my opponent position. No amount of skill is going to overcome those Ace-high and Queen-high flops which come 1/3 of the time. No amount of skill is going to blow me off of AQ on a ragged flop.

Now you've got AQo for five bets each in a three-way pot and you go first all the way out. Whoopee.

Your damn right you should be saying Whoopee. When your two opponents are a straddler with a random hand and a player, even skilled, who has a very wide 3-betting range, you're in a great spot. I'll take AQo there every time and be a millionaire by the end of the year.

BTW, if I was playing in a game with any 2+2er, I would gladly offer him the seat on my immediate left. I love it when they "have position" on me. This seating choice has been discussed many times on the forum.

[Dynasty]

All of your points would be valid if this were a headsup pot, but it's not. You have a guy who's going to stay around and see the river.

The straddler folded pre-flop.

While it's certainly unusual to see a straddler fold pre-flop, I've seen it plenty of times. More importantly, I've seen them fold lots of times on the flop and turn. There's no reason for you to assume he's going to the river.

[Ulysses]

Although it was somewhat comical that he folded to a four-bet, I wasn't surprised by it at all.

I was surprised. While this guy is solid, I've seen him call 2 more bets w/ Q4o before. Why? Because he bought the blinds and had too many of his own chips already invested in the pot.

While it doesn't make much sense, I see many of the strongest players putting in lots of extra chips w/ complete garbage holdings because of two things in a situation like this:

a) They've "put too many chips in the pot already to fold"
b) They don't like someone trying to steal against their random hand and want to "teach them a lesson"

Anyway, I think this was a one-in-a-bignumber fold by the straddler. It was a perfect confluence of factors:

a) A crappy hand (K2o)
b) Him believing I had a real hand
c) I believe his breakfast had just arrived

Anyway, my point is merely this. In taking into account possible actions here, I think one should expect w/ 90+% certainty that the straddler will call the 4-bet.

[Ulysses]

While it's certainly unusual to see a straddler fold pre-flop, I've seen it plenty of times.

Not in Cali, baby. FWIW, I've seen a live straddle at least a couple of hundred times this year. There was a 4-bet probably about a third of those times. This may have been the first time I've seen the straddler fold this year.

[bad beetz]

I've seen several hundred straddles too.

I've seen a straddler fold twice in my life. Once for one bet from an old lady, (wtf?!) and then this.

I was not planning on him folding his straddle, but I didn't mind him calling when I was pretty sure I had a better hand than his.

I think he thought we both had very strong hands and he had garbage, and he knew the action was going to be heavy.

[bad beetz]

This is inconsequential but I thought people might be curious. Ulysses had pocket sixes with the six of hearts.

What do you think of his play?

[jen]

Although I agree with your post in general as it applies to 90+% of the straddling cases, I think your read is way off if you think this guy was in any way distracted by breakfast with his live straddle. Also, I'm not sure people necessarily thought that you had a real hand, but there was no doubt in anyone's mind that bad beetz had a real hand.

Are you saying that you thought bad beetz should have folded his hand pre-flop? This was one of the tightest tables that I've played at at AJs -- definitely not a gambling one. I think if bad beetz is too tentative to play out his hand in this spot at this situation in this table, then he might as well not be playing mid-limits.

[J.A.Sucker]

Yeah the straddler folded preflop, but you don't know this a priori , so you better act as if he's going to call.

As for your other point that above (to Lee, I think) wanting AQo every hand in a pot where the button will have 78s and loving it, I agree that would be nice. However, that's not what's happening here. I suspect if we played a game where you have AQo in the SB, there's random hands in the BB and straddler, and I have the range of hands that Ulysses has, then you'll not make that much money. If you would be ahead, then it's not a lot, but your variance would be quite large. I prefer to "gamble" in better spots. As Lee pointed out, give me AK or a decent sized pair, then we're talking.

[bernie]

the 2+2er 3 betting here could have a very wide range of hands. he also knows that 3 betting will likely fold most 'thinking' players behind him. so he can lower his standards a little and try for the isolation against the straddler with a much lesser hand. knowing this, the raise by AQo is a nice move.

if this was a player with very high raising standards in this spot, meaning, regardless of position and opportunity to isolate a weaker player, then i could see a fold.

i also wouldnt mind a 2 + 2 er on my left. for the very reason that many wont reraise in the play presented in this post. i can lower my standards, bump him out of the pot when against much weaker opponents. when he does comes in, ill know he has a very good hand.

the motion of the chips goes clockwise. i want first crack at any weakies money before any other solid/rock player. put em on your left. they can have the scraps.

b

[bernie]

so now you have to adjust to your predicament. youre both figuring the straddler will call, but you got 4 bet. usually that's by a much better hand than your isolation 3 bet. the pressure is on you now. regardless of position. and if you only have an ok hand here, youre really not liking it.

this is a spot where youre either saying, 'dammit' or 'that's ok, im not worried'

b

[FishyWhale]

[bernie]

"I've seen him call 2 more bets w/ Q4o before. Why? Because he bought the blinds and had too many of his own chips already invested in the pot."

maybe it was also because he didnt have either of you 2 raising him in that pot. not that that makes it a great call. but in this hand, he has 2 solid players jacking it up. if it were different players, he may have called the 4 bet. if he's a decent player, he knows what the 4 bet would indicate. that bet would scare him much more than the 3 bet. you can maybe give him a little credit for knowing the opponents on this one...

b

[FishyWhale]

Not an easy spot, but I think he should have folded on the flop or turn. Why? Well, he´s got two ways to win: the first is hoping that you don´t have a higher holding on the flop, the second lies in buying a flush if you do, hoping that you don´t have a higher flush. Yet it´s not as if two shaky ways of winning equal one solid way, they are just two ways of trapping yourself for lots of money, so letting it go (with a sigh) on the flop, or better yet calling the flop and folding on turn when he you still show strength by betting (after all you risk getting raised by a flush), sounds better.

[Ulysses]

Not an easy spot, but I think he should have folded on the flop or turn.

Hmmm... I felt like this was a very easy calldown.

[Clarkmeister]

It is.

[Ed Miller]

AQ is way too much hand to be folding with 3 1/2 bets of soft money in the pot... especially against an open-raise that doesn't promise a whole lot of power.

I'd play every hand for the rest of my life out of position if I was dealt AQ every time and my opponent was dealt a random hand.

[Ed Miller]

[Ulysses]

I think your read is way off if you think this guy was in any way distracted by breakfast with his live straddle.
Distracted? Perhaps no. But is breakfast one of the variables in the equation that determines what one does when confronted with a decision to make at the poker table? Of course it is - and a key one at that!

I'm not sure people necessarily thought that you had a real hand
Fair enough. I rarely have a real hand, especially not on the button. Luckily for me, PH is the only player there who can reliably read how big my hand is.

there was no doubt in anyone's mind that bad beetz had a real hand.
What? I had some doubt, though I thought he most likely had just about what he had. He's a tricky young man and I think he would have smooth-called w/ a big pair. I thought AQ/AK or a small pair were likely holdings. But don't think that young beetz won't make a play with very little in this situation against a straddler and a suspect button raiser.

Are you saying that you thought bad beetz should have folded his hand pre-flop?
No. I was just saying, well, what I said.

[elysium]

hi bad
it's a very close decision here because both opponents may be unusually weak;.....bad, at the table, i couldn't decide quickly enough, and i likely would have called. but in retrospect, i like it. i'm sure that you thought the straddler would call and that you had the best hand. you are in the worst position, so yea. get those bets in there while you can. too bad the straddler dropped out. you very likely had him beat too.

[bad beetz]

I would have played it the same way ulysses did. I want to get to the river, and cheaply.

There's just too good a chance I have AQ, AK or no heart for him to fold

[bigfishead]

Especially at AJ's where the BB is likely to wake up, and throw in a fifth bet as he hollers, "Gambo!" Actually, the much more likely chance was that the straddler was gonna do that.


Very well stated Lee. This is the Bay Area mentality for sure. While I like the 4-bet against the 2+2er, it is the rest of the "GAMBO!" that too often hurts ya in THIS game.

I hate weak-tight play as Lee has leaned a bit towards in this hand in particular but his reasoning is accurate. I say it's a toss-up to play it in either fashion.

[J.A.Sucker]

Thinking that Ulysses has a "random hand" is silly. He is probably raising "light," but he's hardly got a real piece of cheese. However, there are 2 random hands in addition to this better than typical (albeit slightly, in all likeliehood) hand left to act. They folded (this time) but they won't always. In fact, Lee's scenario is more common than not in this game. At best, you've made the pot big enough for Ulysses et al to see you at the river, which is hardly the best situaiton for AQo, since it's not a significanly better hand than the other hands if you need to showdown a winning hand. My whole point is that it's not a "clear call, and not close." At best, it's a thin call (as Dynasty acknowledges) but I think it's closer to breakeven than you guys would like to admit. At worst, Ulysses picked up a real hand here, like AK and he's gonna kick your ass all over the cardroom.

[jen]

Lee's scenario was definitely not the case here at this table. No way BB was going to call four bets. It was also unlikely that the straddler was going to call another two, given the raising scenario.

True, Ulysses won't have a random hand, but his raise can definitely be light. If Ulysses has aces, kings, queens, or AK, then so be it. But that's likely not the case. And if bad beetz is going to play weak-tight when he's likely ahead with lots of dead money in the pot, then he might as well not play in these games. Easy four-bet.

[J_V]

You couldn't be more right. It's actually no where near a random hand. It is not....32, 42, 52, 62, 72, 82, 92, 102, J2, Q2, 35, 36, 37, 38, 93, 103. If he is open raising these in straddle situations he is gonna lose his ass.

Accuracy on this forum has dwindled to record lows, it's becoming vogue to make rash generalizations and "suave" plays are becoming the norm. Glad to see you straightened some people out. In fact, I'd be shocked if Ulysses didn't have a hand that plays well. I think its a close call, with fold looking more right than wrong.

[Rick Nebiolo]

bad beetz,

If Ulysses's three bet requirements are what you say (and against a live straddle on the button they sound right) folding is insane and with two bets with random cards in you want to put the pressure on early.

BTW, what do you do if Ulysses raises on the river?

~ Rick

[bad beetz]

I check and make sure I have that big heart and then I call.

[FishyWhale]

both you and Clarky would really continue to bet on turn after the fourth heart comes down with just AK or AQ when Ulysses, a good (and as I assume winning) player, has CALLED on this flop? I think I probably would check and fold and because of the fact that Ulysses opponent bet on turn again, that would make me think that he really has got a high flush, which is why I thought that folding is the better play (run and live to fight another day, you know). But apparently I´m just too conservative or the opponents I play against are more passive than yours.

[J_V]

Yeah it's an easy four bet. No doubt about that.

[DanZ]

pre-flop 4 bet is automatic. Getting out the straddle is of paramount importance, since you have a good chance to win unimporved against 1 player but this is much harder against 2. Yes, the straddler is there to play it, but if he has a horrid hand, he will often often fold for 2 bets but not 1. THis means more than anything else.

Dan Z.

[bad beetz]

I think checking/folding on the turn when theres a shitload of money in the pot heads up against someone who may not have anything either is suicide.

I don't know. I only like the hand before the flop, I knew it was going to be uncomfortable to play post flop.

Fortunately Ulysses went with the same call/call/call approach I would have taken.

[bad beetz]

I have to go with the assumption that the straddler will not fold, because that's just not what they do.

[Ulysses]

After 4-betting pre-flop, they can get me to lay down a number of better or equivalent hands (than unimproved AQ/AK) by continuing to bet when the fourth heart hits on the turn. This presumes that the flop action went bet-call, which may not have been the case had I not had exactly what I had (smallish pair w/ a heart), but that's of course a wholly different hypothetical discussion.

[Ulysses]

Fortunately Ulysses went with the same call/call/call approach I would have taken.

I thought you thought (when we talked afterwards) it was a really tough turn call for me?

[bad beetz]

I think I was just taunting you. I would have played your hand the same way head to foot. You have a heart, you can't fold it.

[Ulysses]

If your primary reason for 4-betting is to get it heads-up, forget about it. On the flip side, you're much more likely to get it 3-way as opposed to 4-way by 4-betting since you'll usually lose the BB. I'd say there's a 1% chance at best that a generic straddler in this game will fold for 2 more SB. Since this was a tighter than normal straddler, perhaps there was a 5% chance of him folding. FYI, he said he almost called the 4-bet (and would have won) w/ Kh2x, but for some reason decided not to.

[Ulysses]

Yeah it's an easy four bet. No doubt about that.

Is it just me, or am I catching a whiff of sarcasm here?

[Ulysses]

I check and make sure I have that big heart and then I call.

Something I meant to say earlier. Not knowing for sure if you have a heart or not is going to prove costly for you in situations like this. If you're not sure, I'd suggest finding out as quickly as possible.

[jen]

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that there was so little chance of getting the straddler out.

And for everyone who keeps posting about what a live, gambling game it must have been at AJs and that a four-bet is worthless in terms of pressuring the straddler -- the table was tight, really tight. I had been playing in the main game for hours before Ulysses and bad beetz joined. There were only two fishy players who came, busted out, and left. Then Ulysses joined. Ulysses kept looking longingly at the must-move table and said more than once -- "the worst beat is getting moved to this table". When bad beetz joined, he was the greenest player there and probably one of the tightest -- fold after fold.

A four-bet from bad beetz from the SB gets noticed. The straddler is solid, wasn't steaming, and plays the player. He may have said that he "almost" played the hand, but it was an auto-fold when it was his turn to act pre-flop -- no hesitation at all. I wouldn't have expected otherwise.

[J_V]

No sarcasm at all. AQ is a great hand. But you have more than a "random hand." In fact, I'm sure your hand is way above average. But AQ is still AQ.

[J_V]

ah yes...sixes. Far from random, I see.

[Ulysses]

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that there was so little chance of getting the straddler out.
Because I've seen him defend his big blind w/ complete cheese against a seemingly legitimate late 3-bet countless times. I think you underestimate how often very solid players will make very questionable stands when they have already put some money into the pot.

A four-bet from bad beetz from the SB gets noticed.
Yeah, but the tightest and most conservative player at the table also went something like 8 bets w/ him when bad beetz flopped top set over bottom set. That's more action than he'd give most. While noticed, I think his SB 4-bet would get less respect than most. A few folds and a couple of hours of solid tight play isn't nearly enough to counter his young punkass look. Hell, JA Sucker has been doing that for hundreds of hours and most everyone still thinks he's a moron.

He may have said that he "almost" played the hand, but it was an auto-fold when it was his turn to act pre-flop -- no hesitation at all. I wouldn't have expected otherwise.
I wouldn't either, with a hot breakfast sitting right behind him.

You're definitely correct that this was a very tight table for AJs. But it's not like the blinds were getting chopped every other hand or anything. I don't think the 4-bet was wrong. However, I think it's close and one can make a very good case for either calling or folding w/ that hand as well. And I definitely think the range of hands the straddler would fold to a 4-bet is much smaller than you think it is.

[Ulysses]

But AQ is still AQ.

I agree. I was just asking because in a post above you stated it was close and leaned towards folding, then later wrote that it was an easy 4-bet, no doubt about it.

[rtrombone]

[DanZ]

Let's look at it this way, 4 betting is at worst slightly wrong, and if the straddler has some garbage that he's willing to fold, even if it's only 5%-10% of his hands, then 4 betting is enormously better than calling. removing the BB is a strong factor as well.

So, weighing slightly wrong 90% and enormously right 10%, I conclude an automatic 4 bet. This is just my opinion, of course.

It's possible folding is correct, but this seems too tight given the position of the opener.

Dan Z.

[Ulysses]

I'm sure it's +EV every time badbeetz spins his baseball cap around and cocks it all crooked-like.

[Clarkmeister]

Dunno, I noticed a high correlation between Beetz tilting his hat crooked and his propensity to "vary his play" the other night. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Ulysses]

Dan,

Wasn't actually meaning to argue against the merits of the 4-bet, just pointing out that you're unlikely to lose the straddler w/ the 4-bet. As I said in my post, though, you're highly likely to lose the BB, which may be reason enough to make the 4-bet correct. And as you point out, there's definitely quite a bit of garbage that the straddler might fold.

You're right, folding is probably wrong given that the 3-bettor rarely has a real hand. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

On the other hand, folding might not be that wrong if the 3-bettor is a pretty good hand reader and the 4-bettor isn't sure what suit his cards are. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[bernie]

routinely folding behind a thinking players isolation raise can cost you chips. one thing that hasnt been addressed, though i am working my way down the thread again, is that by 4 betting, this may cause the 3 bettor to tighten up a little when raising in this spot. again, put a thinking player to my left, and ill raise a whole bunch of stuff to get him out and get a clear shot at the weaker players hands.

this was an easy 4 bet. unless the 3 bettor's tendency is to isolate with only very good hands. from the 66 in the results, this isnt the case. now he'll have to think of a possible reraise behind him before jacking it.

this isnt a suave play, this was a great tactical play based upon a read of the 4 bettor. he read the situation right and acted accordingly.

but some will keep waiting for the nut hands while watching the player on the right play against the easy money.

sometimes you have to get in the ring and roll up your sleeves.

b

[bernie]

if you check this turn, youve induced a bluff havent you? even if i didnt have a heart id bet this if checked to. that card is scary to the other player too. bet out and make him think a little about the hand. in a HU from preflop situation the flush is less prominent. but you can bluff a little when it shows up

but checking and folding? no way.

b

[haakee]

Yeah, I've referred to his hat as a tiltmeter in the past. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif But the skewed hat is definitely +EV.

[Dynasty]

A lot of you are talking as if you want the Big Blind and Straddler to fold their hands rather than call 3-cold and 2-cold respectively. In that spot, I'd be 4-betting and be very happy to see them call. Why do so many of you want your opponents to fold when you've got a premium hand?

[J_V]

I don't think it's a "suave" play. This is just a good tactical play. I was more annoyed at the raising any2cards on the button comment. That's "suave" but ridiculously unpractical.

Suave plays that have become popular. 12 betting and folding for the 13th bet.

raising preflop and folding.

Folding 95s in the big blind at 15/30 for one chip.


hmmmm wonder who popularized them?

[mikelow]

He shouldn't have called twice with a small heart. The only way it gains if "beetz" is bluffing without a heart.

[DanS]

"Dunno, I noticed a high correlation between Beetz tilting his hat crooked and his propensity to "vary his play" the other night."

So when Dave "varied his play" by 3 betting my openraise of ATo with A, ahem, 7o, what degree was his hat tilted to? It must have been inside up and upside down like a rally cap or something, cuz he was pretty damn tilted at that point! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Dan

[J_V]

yeah I know....i was unclear and to compound that I was thinking about a different post when I wrote this.

[bad beetz]

.....your mom over a table.

just kidding.


It was a couch.

Seriously. I wasn't tilted, I just can't take those homegames seriously. Maybe it's cause I usually am playing .25/.50, but the 2/4 we were playing is just enough to make it hurt a little. Hey, I came there to "play," and if that means three betting your ace-not-so-rag with ace-rag so I'ze can make your bitch ass fold on the flop for one bet then so be it. If it weren't for that darn TJ swan being the only one recognizing that I was a freak and calling me down with whatever cards he happened to have in his hand my meniacle play may have been +EV.

I never tilted once. I came pre-tilted. let me know next time you play so I can join you for some fun in your return to the ring. I haven't seen you out and I miss the tilted Dan S. A tilted Dan S. is a beatiful thing. You're the only one I know who tilts while winning.

[bad beetz]

I was pretty sure I had a heart, and I thought you might fold the turn anyway. I was going to bet the turn, so why look? I subconsciously knew I had a heart, although I couldn't consciously verify it.

I always know which two cards I have in my hand, and what suit each card is. I don't know why I forgot in this instance, maybe because it was such an intensely unique situation I forgot.

[bad beetz]

This sounds sarcastic but I don't understand it. Sixes are a good hand, and if you're not three-bet isolating a straddler from the button with sixes than something's wrong.

[ChuckRazor]

Position is a small advantage. Best hand is, well, the biggest advantage. Good players know how to play good hands in bad position. Sure, you won't pick up the pots nobody wants, but you can lead a rag flops first. I have the hand-you have position....I Win! I am with Dynasty on this one.

[DanS]

Man,
If Tim hadn't decided to police yo ass and yo thin reraises by calling three cold from the SB, I woulda rope-a-doped your ass into oblivion with my "big ass ace." You wouldn't have known what hit you.

I'm going to make an Ali like return to the ring on Fri/Sat in San Jo, I'll call you tomorrow and we can hash out the details.

Dan

P.S. If *you*, open-raise isolated a straddler with position, I'd 4 bet from the small blind with 7-rag suited or 8-rag off or better, and have the best hand preflop 83.62 percent of the time. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[jen]

I don't necessarily think it's bad to have random hands call four bets. However, I can see a case for wanting to reduce variance, if it's a wild and crazy table, while holding AQo in the worst position. I just wanted to properly set the stage for this hand by telling the posters that this was not the case.

Dynasty, just out of curiosity, do you consistently raise hands such as AKo, AQo, AJo out of the blinds in multi-way pots because you likely have the best holding pre-flop?

[baseball38]

I like the preflop 4 bet, especially heads up with the info you have on the player.

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[Dynasty]

do you consistently raise hands such as AKo, AQo, AJo out of the blinds in multi-way pots because you likely have the best holding pre-flop?

AKo- defitely
AQo- usually
AJo- rarely

[bernie]

when HU from preflop, there's a good chance if he hits his flush with his small heart, that it will be good.

b