pfkaok
11-12-2005, 05:10 AM
ok. so i called out a person in the forum instead of asking for his name to PM him. is it really that bad? its not like the thread was getting out of control. i was out at a show for a while, and was actually planning on addin more to that one in order to mention the real reason why i made the post. the post was made in a hurry since i was on my way out. now i come back to further explain it and its locked. wtf? you mods are really not doing the right things here. i was a little ticked too at the posts from the other night by hiatus that you cut out. b/c i was out when he made them, so now i will never know what was said. and from what he said later, there was actually some content to his post. it wasn't just a total flame. however, i can never tell for myself, b/c you guys felt the need to "protect" us all from it. ridiculous. now you went and locked this thread that had no signs of turning realy bad, no flame wars, and no hijackings. why? hmm.
and now lets think back on the redzone posts made. how many useless, harmful posts, and hijackings were there in that one? umm, i'd say about half the posts in there were quote lol's. or "this thread is retarded". how does that not warrant a deletion? there is no useful info in there, and it causes only bad things. why were none of those edited? is it b/c some "name" posters were agreeing that the post was "stupid", like MLG's post, titled "let's end the stupidity". are you kidding? could any non "name" poster have made that without an immediate warning or deletion? the preferential treatment here is insane, and i know a lot of the really good players who refuse to post here anymore know this. you guys have BIG problems. its just such a big, stupid clique, with the leaders having the most say, and all the lesser knowns sucking them off constantly in an attempt to be part of the elite. seriously, its scary. the fact that the colored name thing was considered, and supported by some is pretty good proof of that. IMO, if all the "top" guys had said they aggreed with it, then probably all the sheep would have followed, and it would have stuck. it just further supports the idea that most people on here are incapable of reading a post objectively, and not just looking for posters they like and agreeing. so the idea of a world class player posting on here is almost completely impossible. as somebody stated in the other thread, they'd need to post anonomously to avoid a zoo, but if they did post anonomously they'd get no good responses b/c they're unknowns. if the "leaders" here didn't agree, then they'd be lol'ed nonstop until they got fed up and left. simple as that. the fact that poker is so big these days almost ensures this. any world class player will surely be on tv from time to time with all the huge tourneys these days. so anyone, like fossilman, who came from here then hit it big would no longer be able to post here b/c of the craziness it would cause. IMO, this forum is most doomed since it is the big time MTTers who get to be wellknown.
basically, for a post to become large, it has to be either started by a "big name", or one of them has to contribute. otherwise it quickly gets pushed out by all the "sweat" threads and soon forgottnen about. this is a problem.
when you look at the most viewed posts, most of the highest up ones contain very little content. and i know i participated in the contest last week, but i think that was my final step in realizing how dumb and actually harmful a lot of these contests/challenges can be. one post that jumps out to have a large number of replies, and was horrible is the *november goals thread*. i was going to make this point in that, but it was already so huge that it would get ignored, as it probably will anyways in this long post of mine. but that whole thread was moronic. if only fossilma could still post here i guarantee he would agree with me 100%. i've never met the guy, but i read almost all his posts, and from that, and his interview, i'm certain that he would say you're all dumb for making up "goals" like that. the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the thread how bad of an idea it was shows the level of understanding of the game by most people here. fossilman, as well as any other top player will tell you... the only goal that you should ever have is to make good decisions. putting in a lot of hours, or hard studying also of course makes sense, but almost everyone in there had some sort of monetary goals. or winning goals. that is an increadibly bad thing to do. as much as everyone on here swears they're not results oriented(b/c they know thats bad), this thread shows that most still are to some degree. setting goals like that in something as highly variant as MTT play is awful. it will usually hurt you. if you start off well you might lose some edge and not feel like you need to play quite as much. if you start off bad you could start having bits of selfdoubt creep in, which could lead to subtle tilt, and lack of confidence. i don't see how anything positive could come of it, except for maybe after you see how it hurt you it could be a learning experience. this is also the case in LHE, as has been seen here several times. i myself did a monthlong challenge, and it did help me quite a bit to see how futile and bad of an idea it was. it was good though, since i did put in tons of hands, and learned from it. but at the same time, if i had put in all those hands without the stupid goal i almost cerainly would have done better. see also shneids and gonores. both increadibly good players who had similar problems with monetary goal challenges. and alobar couldn't even make it though his b/c he knew it was hurting his game too much.
poker is a game. its a very fun game, but its a game of chance, and its unique in the amount of luck in contains. re-reading the gigabet success/failure thread earlier this week made this even more clear to me. you can't worry about winning and losing. if you do then you'll never be able to fully enjoy the game. and enjoy the randomness. let me tell you, its fun. once i finally grasped this i've been able to put in way more hours, and often have to stop myself when i realize how long i've been at it. and everyday i'm excited to "go to work". not many people can say that. even a lot of poker pros are horribly depressed people when they're "running bad". but the truly world class, great players, like chip reese(probably all the biggame longterm winners) actually understand what it means to be a game of chance. and they can put in tons of hours b/c they truly love the game, and the randomness is fun for them. i'm nowhere near their level, and probably never will be, but i feel like i'm finally starting to have a similar love for the game. the fact is, that most people who are pro's, or very good poker players, are usually just good at games in general. and most people never can fully grasp just how much chance there is at poker. for me, i've always been into video games, and have always been pretty good. but if i'm better than my friend in a video game, i probably win 90% of the time or so, unless its hadicapped in some fashion. with poker its so close to 50% sometimes, that it'd be really hard to tell if you are in fact winning if you didn't keep records. it took me a very long time, combined with hundreds of thousands of hands, probably 50+ books, and tons of lurking/posting. but now i finally appreciate it a lot. it is what ensures that games will always be good. no way that even most good players will ever fully understand that. these days the only thing that is mildly annoying to me is the jerks who are constantly berating others' play. this is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. in some ways though, i feel this can actualy give me an edge. having a dislike for your opponents can be a good thing if you know how to use it properly. not like "i'm gonna get him back" kind of way, but like in the way of being even more aware of their mistakes so that you can exploit it later. it gives me a keener view sometimes, and with the emotion envolved it can actually help my recall i feel. in stu ungars book it mentioned that this was key to his edge. he had to feel like he wanted to destroy the opponent. i like that approach. i don't mind if others think that way towards me, b/c if they're good i expect them to when we're at the table. so of course i won't take it personally. but when you're playing it is a war, and every great player knows that. you want to exploit every weakness you can find while at the same time not being easily exploitable.
so anyways. i called him out for a reason. and it goes beyond just his simple insults at the table. first of all, he was increadibly stubborn and childish in a thread of mine a while back. so as soon as i saw the name, i remembered that he was a total dueche. i felt after his behavior he deserved to be shown how badly he behaved. i a VERY uncontoversial person at most times, however certain things to provoke me enough to get pissed about. berating people at the table by a 2p2er is one of them. (unfairness, bias and strong prejudices are a few others) basically it just bothers me a lot that a "good" player, sometimes even a pro will act in such a childish, and unprofessional manner at the table. most professionals could not act that way. in doyle's "wisdom of a poker champ" book he talks about how much he detests table coaches. he mentions how a pro was insulting a player across the table for being "such an idiot" for drawing to that str8 (or whatever it was). the man was actually a doctor, and later when the berating pro collapsed from a chest pain, how horrible would it have been for the doctor to say "c'mon. of course its not a heart attack. its just heartburn you moron.". most doctors would be ashamed if they heard another doctor speak to a victim, or patient that way. i'm a pro poker player. i'm ashamed when another "pro" acts in such a way. its bad for poker. its bad for me. and its bad for any pro, or any other person who likes to play poker a lot. obviously these people are immature, and usually very insecure, so the feel the need to inflate the ego from time to time at others' expense. its really a shame though that they can't just enjoy the fact that they get to make money by playing a game. not many people get to do that.
i know this is taking it a bit far, but i really think that there's parrallels on some level between table berating and more serious problems. in our society there's so many fights being started for no other reason than to enhance the provokers ego. and to show others how tough they are. or even worse when its to show how right they are about something. like if you're homophobic and beat up a gay guy, that's supposed to show us how wrong it is to be homosexual. thats really no much different than a poker player with a hurt ego calls another player stupid, as if by showing everyone how stupid the other person is that will make it so. phil h. is the ultimate example of a pro who will be increadibly illogical when he's losing. he was berating magriel for his play when he knocked him out of the wsop, when clearly he was tilting, not thinking straight, and coulnd't possibly explain logically why x22's play was bad. as if he's phil h, so by calling another player stupid that makes it so. unfortunately that faulty reasoning is used by players ALL THE TIME on the internet by players with hurting egos after losing a hand. its just so increadibly selfish, and very, very bad for the community as a whole. these people who deliberately hurt others just to boost themselves up a bit are unbearable to me. we see this on an even higher level. i know this is getting way off topic, but when the US sends troops to another country to kill tons of people so that they can get richer, thats horrible. however, it happens. and people in our counrty see how great it is to "have pride" and be "god blessed" with manifest destiny. its good to go around hurting others to show how tough and strong we are. this is the mindset, and its awful. it trickles down to so many people in our society. players who berate others are cerainly guilty of having this mindset, and at times its sickening how many of them there are.
i know i got all over the place in this, and probably nobody got through the whole thing, but i really don't care about those people. if they're too close minded and selfish to read an entire post with an open mind, then F*** them.
later.
and now lets think back on the redzone posts made. how many useless, harmful posts, and hijackings were there in that one? umm, i'd say about half the posts in there were quote lol's. or "this thread is retarded". how does that not warrant a deletion? there is no useful info in there, and it causes only bad things. why were none of those edited? is it b/c some "name" posters were agreeing that the post was "stupid", like MLG's post, titled "let's end the stupidity". are you kidding? could any non "name" poster have made that without an immediate warning or deletion? the preferential treatment here is insane, and i know a lot of the really good players who refuse to post here anymore know this. you guys have BIG problems. its just such a big, stupid clique, with the leaders having the most say, and all the lesser knowns sucking them off constantly in an attempt to be part of the elite. seriously, its scary. the fact that the colored name thing was considered, and supported by some is pretty good proof of that. IMO, if all the "top" guys had said they aggreed with it, then probably all the sheep would have followed, and it would have stuck. it just further supports the idea that most people on here are incapable of reading a post objectively, and not just looking for posters they like and agreeing. so the idea of a world class player posting on here is almost completely impossible. as somebody stated in the other thread, they'd need to post anonomously to avoid a zoo, but if they did post anonomously they'd get no good responses b/c they're unknowns. if the "leaders" here didn't agree, then they'd be lol'ed nonstop until they got fed up and left. simple as that. the fact that poker is so big these days almost ensures this. any world class player will surely be on tv from time to time with all the huge tourneys these days. so anyone, like fossilman, who came from here then hit it big would no longer be able to post here b/c of the craziness it would cause. IMO, this forum is most doomed since it is the big time MTTers who get to be wellknown.
basically, for a post to become large, it has to be either started by a "big name", or one of them has to contribute. otherwise it quickly gets pushed out by all the "sweat" threads and soon forgottnen about. this is a problem.
when you look at the most viewed posts, most of the highest up ones contain very little content. and i know i participated in the contest last week, but i think that was my final step in realizing how dumb and actually harmful a lot of these contests/challenges can be. one post that jumps out to have a large number of replies, and was horrible is the *november goals thread*. i was going to make this point in that, but it was already so huge that it would get ignored, as it probably will anyways in this long post of mine. but that whole thread was moronic. if only fossilma could still post here i guarantee he would agree with me 100%. i've never met the guy, but i read almost all his posts, and from that, and his interview, i'm certain that he would say you're all dumb for making up "goals" like that. the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the thread how bad of an idea it was shows the level of understanding of the game by most people here. fossilman, as well as any other top player will tell you... the only goal that you should ever have is to make good decisions. putting in a lot of hours, or hard studying also of course makes sense, but almost everyone in there had some sort of monetary goals. or winning goals. that is an increadibly bad thing to do. as much as everyone on here swears they're not results oriented(b/c they know thats bad), this thread shows that most still are to some degree. setting goals like that in something as highly variant as MTT play is awful. it will usually hurt you. if you start off well you might lose some edge and not feel like you need to play quite as much. if you start off bad you could start having bits of selfdoubt creep in, which could lead to subtle tilt, and lack of confidence. i don't see how anything positive could come of it, except for maybe after you see how it hurt you it could be a learning experience. this is also the case in LHE, as has been seen here several times. i myself did a monthlong challenge, and it did help me quite a bit to see how futile and bad of an idea it was. it was good though, since i did put in tons of hands, and learned from it. but at the same time, if i had put in all those hands without the stupid goal i almost cerainly would have done better. see also shneids and gonores. both increadibly good players who had similar problems with monetary goal challenges. and alobar couldn't even make it though his b/c he knew it was hurting his game too much.
poker is a game. its a very fun game, but its a game of chance, and its unique in the amount of luck in contains. re-reading the gigabet success/failure thread earlier this week made this even more clear to me. you can't worry about winning and losing. if you do then you'll never be able to fully enjoy the game. and enjoy the randomness. let me tell you, its fun. once i finally grasped this i've been able to put in way more hours, and often have to stop myself when i realize how long i've been at it. and everyday i'm excited to "go to work". not many people can say that. even a lot of poker pros are horribly depressed people when they're "running bad". but the truly world class, great players, like chip reese(probably all the biggame longterm winners) actually understand what it means to be a game of chance. and they can put in tons of hours b/c they truly love the game, and the randomness is fun for them. i'm nowhere near their level, and probably never will be, but i feel like i'm finally starting to have a similar love for the game. the fact is, that most people who are pro's, or very good poker players, are usually just good at games in general. and most people never can fully grasp just how much chance there is at poker. for me, i've always been into video games, and have always been pretty good. but if i'm better than my friend in a video game, i probably win 90% of the time or so, unless its hadicapped in some fashion. with poker its so close to 50% sometimes, that it'd be really hard to tell if you are in fact winning if you didn't keep records. it took me a very long time, combined with hundreds of thousands of hands, probably 50+ books, and tons of lurking/posting. but now i finally appreciate it a lot. it is what ensures that games will always be good. no way that even most good players will ever fully understand that. these days the only thing that is mildly annoying to me is the jerks who are constantly berating others' play. this is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. in some ways though, i feel this can actualy give me an edge. having a dislike for your opponents can be a good thing if you know how to use it properly. not like "i'm gonna get him back" kind of way, but like in the way of being even more aware of their mistakes so that you can exploit it later. it gives me a keener view sometimes, and with the emotion envolved it can actually help my recall i feel. in stu ungars book it mentioned that this was key to his edge. he had to feel like he wanted to destroy the opponent. i like that approach. i don't mind if others think that way towards me, b/c if they're good i expect them to when we're at the table. so of course i won't take it personally. but when you're playing it is a war, and every great player knows that. you want to exploit every weakness you can find while at the same time not being easily exploitable.
so anyways. i called him out for a reason. and it goes beyond just his simple insults at the table. first of all, he was increadibly stubborn and childish in a thread of mine a while back. so as soon as i saw the name, i remembered that he was a total dueche. i felt after his behavior he deserved to be shown how badly he behaved. i a VERY uncontoversial person at most times, however certain things to provoke me enough to get pissed about. berating people at the table by a 2p2er is one of them. (unfairness, bias and strong prejudices are a few others) basically it just bothers me a lot that a "good" player, sometimes even a pro will act in such a childish, and unprofessional manner at the table. most professionals could not act that way. in doyle's "wisdom of a poker champ" book he talks about how much he detests table coaches. he mentions how a pro was insulting a player across the table for being "such an idiot" for drawing to that str8 (or whatever it was). the man was actually a doctor, and later when the berating pro collapsed from a chest pain, how horrible would it have been for the doctor to say "c'mon. of course its not a heart attack. its just heartburn you moron.". most doctors would be ashamed if they heard another doctor speak to a victim, or patient that way. i'm a pro poker player. i'm ashamed when another "pro" acts in such a way. its bad for poker. its bad for me. and its bad for any pro, or any other person who likes to play poker a lot. obviously these people are immature, and usually very insecure, so the feel the need to inflate the ego from time to time at others' expense. its really a shame though that they can't just enjoy the fact that they get to make money by playing a game. not many people get to do that.
i know this is taking it a bit far, but i really think that there's parrallels on some level between table berating and more serious problems. in our society there's so many fights being started for no other reason than to enhance the provokers ego. and to show others how tough they are. or even worse when its to show how right they are about something. like if you're homophobic and beat up a gay guy, that's supposed to show us how wrong it is to be homosexual. thats really no much different than a poker player with a hurt ego calls another player stupid, as if by showing everyone how stupid the other person is that will make it so. phil h. is the ultimate example of a pro who will be increadibly illogical when he's losing. he was berating magriel for his play when he knocked him out of the wsop, when clearly he was tilting, not thinking straight, and coulnd't possibly explain logically why x22's play was bad. as if he's phil h, so by calling another player stupid that makes it so. unfortunately that faulty reasoning is used by players ALL THE TIME on the internet by players with hurting egos after losing a hand. its just so increadibly selfish, and very, very bad for the community as a whole. these people who deliberately hurt others just to boost themselves up a bit are unbearable to me. we see this on an even higher level. i know this is getting way off topic, but when the US sends troops to another country to kill tons of people so that they can get richer, thats horrible. however, it happens. and people in our counrty see how great it is to "have pride" and be "god blessed" with manifest destiny. its good to go around hurting others to show how tough and strong we are. this is the mindset, and its awful. it trickles down to so many people in our society. players who berate others are cerainly guilty of having this mindset, and at times its sickening how many of them there are.
i know i got all over the place in this, and probably nobody got through the whole thing, but i really don't care about those people. if they're too close minded and selfish to read an entire post with an open mind, then F*** them.
later.