Folding to 1 bet on the end.

[frappeboy]

The pot is rather large on the end but I felt like I was beat here atleast 95% of the time if not more. Seat 5 is a reasonable player who plays a little too loose but not an idiot. If I hadn't raised 5th street I think things would be a little different. Any thoughts?

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls
Hero: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___completes
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds

4th Street - (3.70 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Hero: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls

5th Street - (3.35 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls___calls
Hero: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets___calls

6th Street - (9.35 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks___calls
Hero: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls

River - (12.35 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif xx___bets
Hero: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (12.35 BB)

It is possible that you are right, but I just don't feel that folding here at the river is a way to make money at stud. Plus, if you make folds here, the smarter player will be betting you out of pots, hand after hand. Yes, you showed strength on fifth, but this looks like one of those instances that you just have to call, given that it looks like seat 7 is not going to call river. There seems to be more reasons to call here than to fold.

Also, i would prefer a call on fifth rather than a raise. It does not look like anyone is folding here and it is not clear that you have the best hand at this moment. You're stuck in this hand, but I think you need to make it as cheap as possible for you to play this out. Your hand is mediocre.

[BeerMoney]

Why did you raise 5th?

I don't mind the fold here. I never really like folds on the river. Its just such an unlikely time for a bluff. although, if he hit a big 5 card hand, i'm not sure why he doesn't look for a check raise.

[blumpkin22]

If you are going to fold tens up on the river for one bet I'm not sure why you are playing this hand past fifth street.

[Andy B]

I grant you that I'm a notorious pay station, but I just can't see folding on the river for one bet here. I'm also not crazy about the raise on fifth street. I find it somewhat unlikely that you have the best hand, and I really don't think anyone's folding.

[beta1607]

I really cant understand the raise on 5th - what were you hoping to accomplish?

The river fold I think is ok because a bluff there seems so unlikely and there is a chance of a raise behind you but I would probably pay off a bet here most of the time.

If your hand was not strong enough to call one bet on the river even after improving, how is it strong enough to raise on 5th street?

[Roland]

What does everyone think about folding 5th? Frappe didn’t say anything about seat 7, but I assume he needs some kind of real hand to bet into that scary board. What’s more, seat 5 needs some kind of real hand to call that bet.
I’d be scared of both aces (up) and (passively played) trip 9s here.

Call me weak-tight. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[BeerMoney]

Frappe, would you best drescribe this fold as something that you have a feel for after playing thousands of hands?

It is possible that the ace hit him, but it is also possible that he is using it as a scare card or maybe also caught 4 clubs. Without anything much showing out there, I would look to call there more than fold. It just seems a little weakish to fold. Granted, the pair of tens is certainly marginal here at this point, but a lot of times you just have to play with these marginal situations until you see something to tell you otherwsie.

[benwood]

Fold 5th, call river. Next hand.

[frappeboy]

Since this post got so much attention let me post my thoughts for each street. Seat 7 was a bad player and Seat 5 was a loose player, but not one of those that tries to bluff at every pot, just plays too many hands.

3rd: Clear Raise
4th: Clear Bet
5th: First of all, I don't think folding here can be correct. If I fold here everytime someone catches an ace I won't be in very good shape. Now there are two other options, calling and raising. If I call, the ace will most likely bet 6th and I'll have to call another bet. So I figured the raise was best because it has 4 benefits:

1: I'm very likely to get a free card on 6th street if I want one. If I do, it is no different than calling 5th and then calling another bet on 6th street.

2: I may make someone fold to the raise. With a marginal hand like this if I can get someone with a gut shot or just 1 pair to fold I gain quite a bit of equity.

3: I may get everyone to fold on 6th street if I make another diamond. In this case I may get an extra 2 big bets out of the hand. Also, I may be happy to get another 2 bets in if I make trip tens or even tens up on 6th street.

4: Raising 5th defines my hand. This is a clear concept in NL hold'em, which I've recently been studying quite a bit. I am representing a very strong hand in this situation, to make playing the later streets easier. It is much less likely that someone is going to bluff at the pot, or bet a marginal hands like jacks up or even aces up on the end. This makes it easier to get away from a hand like tens or tens up if someone does bet or raise into the pot.

6th: Now that I've improved to tens up, I have to figure I'm gonna be ahead most of the time, so I bet.

7th: I think due to the raise on 5th, I can get away from this hand and save 1BB. I've defined my hand as strong and my opponent is loose but not a crazy maniac. Both my board and my opponents board look very strong, and the action has been very strong. Yet my opponent leads out with a bet here. This is not a spot where I think most sane people will bluff at. Given the action, I bet he has trips at a minimum but more likely a really big hand like a hidden full house or straight.


The way I decide how to call with a marginal hand on the end is based on how scary my board, and in this case seat 7's board looks to the person betting, and how the hand was played. In this case, both of our boards are quite scary, and we have both showed strength in the hand. If our boards were ragged and i had just called on 5th and called on 6th, then I would be more willing to call a bet on the end.

[blumpkin22]

I understand your reasoning behind the way you played the hand. I think the problem is that, while your raise on fifth shows strength, it can also be misconstrued as a semi-bluff with the three diamonds showing. Moreover, with the dead diamonds and your completion on third street, it is fairly clear that you most likely do not have two diamonds in the hole, but rather split tens, some pocket pair, or (less likely with you being in early position) just big cards or perhaps some gapped 3-straight. Thus, I think there is a reasonable chance (how likely it's hard to say) that your opponents put you on a pair of tens and picked up a 4-flush on fifth street, or were just bluffing the diamonds. I think you will see a smaller two pair here often enough to make a call profitable on the river (although you should expect to lose to a straight or trips more often than not).