Need Life Advice Bad

[lehighguy]

This isn't related to politics. However, most of the posters I know are here. It is also posted in the general forum.

First some background. I'm 22. I just graduated college a little over 3 months ago. Now I work for an investment bank in NYC where I live. Our training program is just finishing, and afterwards I'm going to start on some desk in sales and trading (front-office) for those in the biz.

So about my future. I have three options as I see it:

1) Keep working on Wall Street:
I really really hate my job. When I was a freshmen in college my Aunt got me an interview without asking me (this is very young, most don't do it until thier junoir year). I did a summer internship and was very successful. They invited me back for another the next year and offered to pay for part of my college (which I turned down because I didn't want to be locked into working for them). We are just finishing up training, and I will then be assinged to a business group. I didn't really want this job, I took it because I didn't know what else to do. I did it because it was the "right" thing to do. I even turned down applying for other jobs because I would have to use my company as a refernce and they would probably fire me if they thought I was applying for other jobs. So this is where I'm at now.

Pros of Job
Money. I make $55,000 salary +$10k signing bonus right out of college. Two more years and I'll be making six figures. 10 years out I could be making a $million/year. However, my expenses are ginormous. Rent, food, and taxes in NYC are rediculous. I have no spending money left. I can barely save. And as I make more money, I'm expected to spend more. It's part of the business. I'm expected to hob nob with my rich clients and co-workers and spend. I turned down going to vegas with them this week because it was too expensive. It will only get worse. Also, later on they try and compensate you with stock and options, which I can't keep if I leave the company. The whole thing is designed to lock you in. I've even met people that have all the money they need to retire, but they have been doing this so long they can't. Everything they do, everyone they know, is tied to the bank. They can't get out. The idea of retiring at 35 is really appealing to me, but who knows if I'll be able too. Maybe in 15 years taxes on the top bracket will be 70% because Social Security is bankrupt. I could be chasing nothing.

Moreover, I don't even want money. I just want enough for food and booze and videogames. I want to spend time hanging out with my friends. I've never been able to spend all the money I've gotten. I've got between $25,000-$30,000 in the bank. Even when I was 17 I hate a huge bank account. I wouldn't know what to do with it.

Good Resume Builder
If I do this, I will be able to get another job much easier. I don't know if it will be worth much outside banking, but its gotta be impressive. If I quit, I'll be labeled a quiter for life, right? I turned down my shot. Who's gonna hire me and spend money training me?

I'm good at this
I may hate it, but I'm very good at it. I'm better then most of the other trainees. The company is always trying to push me foward.

Cons
I don't know if I can make it another 2 years. I don't know if I can make it another 2 months. Each day is killing my soul. Minimum workweek is 60 hours. Sometimes more. Because I hate work so much I've developed a crippling insomnia. I don't want to go to sleep because I have to wake up and go to work. I'm getting less then four or five hours every night. If I had work today I would have gotten two. It feels like its getting worse. And it makes my waking hours unbearable. It's like I'm niether awake or asleep. I drink two red bulls a day. This is killing me.

Also, I hate corporate America in general. I hate having a boss. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I own my own business and report to myself. I don't think a different kind of banking job is the answer.

Play Poker for a Living
This would be a dream solution, if I thought I was good enough. I started playing 3/6 on party one year ago. I made 1.7bb/100 four tabling during fall semester and played 5/10 short towards the end.

When I came back in Spring semester I really picked up my game. I played 5/10 on pacific and made about 4k. Then I started playing 200NL and made great moeny too. I played in the sunday tournament about 10 times ($100 buy-in) and cashed in 3rd once for $8,000. When they opened up $600NL I did very well, up 8k. However, I've gone down 5k since then, including 1k last night (first time I played in two months).

I also played $50+5 tournies over the summer and made $4.89/tourney (ROI = 9%). At 40min per tourney that is $7.62/hour. I play 4 tournies at once so that is close to $28/hour. This is over 541 tournies. If you include my shots at 100s and 200s the results go down. I make $3.85/tourney (ROI 6%), $6.01/hour times 4 tables. So $24/hour over 601 tournies. None of this includes rakeback. I would add $1300 in rakeback since Feb including tournaments and my 50NL and 100NL cash play on eurobet. I also earned rakeback from pacific, but not as much.

In summary, I've made about $19,000 this year. I would estimate I played an average of 10 hours a week over the first 6 months, mostly at one table of pacific for the first 4. My main source of income has been pacific, which is getting harder to beat everyday and still offers only one table. Avg pots are comming way down, more sharks are feeding. This last 5k downswing is destroying my confidence.

I would be satisfied with playing poker for 50k/year, but I worry about the future of its popularity. I kinduv want to make $100k per year so I can save 50k of it. That way if poker dies in 5 years I'll have $250k to start my own business. I'd really like to open an internet gaming cafe or something. I know they won't loan money to a gambler, so I'm gonna need my own capital. Thing is, I just don't know if I have enough natural talent to do that. If I was gonna make it, shouldn't I have done it by now?

Bankroll considerations. I have like $25-30k in the bank. Of that money 10k + interest in my signing bonus. If I leave the bank anytime in the next 9 months or so they will keep it. So now I'm down to $15-20k. I still have to pay taxes on poker winning, so that could be like 7-10k right?. Down to like 8k or so. I have prepaid next month rent, so if I work until the end of decemeber I could probably save another 2k or so. I have $20k of student loans. Most are low interest and only require $50 payments each month, but 1k or 2k of it is at 7%, so I want to pay it off.

If I quit I will move back into my friends apartment off campus. Rent will be only a few hundred a month. I won't need a car. I already have a 21 inch monitor and a new computer for poker, as well as all the poker software. I can't think of any big expenses.

Lastly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it. I hate losing specifically because it makes me believe I couldn't go pro. If I had made $100,000 this year and lost $5k I wouldn't care. Specific bad beat hands don't bother me. It's when I think I can't do it that it bothers me, because I want to do it so bad. I study, I read, I'm trying so hard.

I'm a big gamer. I played chess on a state champion chess team. I play every strategy game ever invented. I was an extremely good RTS player. Poker is like the king of games, and I love playing it. What hurts about my job is I'm so tired I can't play poker at all anymore. I'm being forced to give it up.

Game Developement:
I would really like to break into this industry, but I have no skills. Sure, I understand game balance and mechanics extremely well, but those jobs usually go to more senoir staff. I have no graphics art talent at all, which is what most people in that industry do. There was an opening for a community manager at blizzard, but I didn't send my application because people said my company would probably fire me if they found out. I get the feeling most jobs in that industry go to friends and family anyway, seeing as everyone wants one. Nevertheless, I wish I had tried.

I had straight As the firs two years of college and loved it because I was doing what I wanted, but dropped to Cs the last two years. I started doing a finance major junoir year because it "made sense" given what my job was. I hated the classes with a passion, and while I got As on the tests I usually slacked off so much and mouthed off so much I ended up getting Cs. Between that and quiting my last job I can't see someone hiring me.

Final Thoughts

4 months ago life was perfect. I had tons of good friends, I have fun all day, I was making tons of money at poker, and I have tons of free time. 4 months later I'm ready to keel over dead. Poker isn't going well, i have no good friends, my co-workers are shallow tools, i hate my job, i have no free time. I can't even get more then 4 hours of sleep. It just all went so wrong so quick.

I talked to my parents about this and the jist of what they said is the life sucks. My best years are behind me, work is suppose to be totally miserable, and it won't change. Just suck it up.

I talked to one of my roomates who is 30. He has been doing 9-5 for 8 years now. He absolutely hates every single day of work. He says he just goes into a trance for 8 hours and pretends he isn't there. When I told him I work 60, 70, 80 hours a week he said he was sorry for me. At least his off hours made up for his on hours. No such luck for me. I asked him how he keeps doing something he hates every single day, and he said its just life. He's 30 and miserable and totally resigned to fate, am I gonna be like that in 8 years?

I've been making the responsible decision everyday since I was 5. I've always been living for the future. Now that it is here I hate it. I'm totally lost and don't know what to do.

[stealyourface]

do what makes you happy, in the end thats all that matters. it is cliche but so true.

The society we live in beats it into our heads that the accumulation of wealth is the goal in life and the key to happiness. While this is true for some people, it is not for most.

[censored] it man, just do what you want, live your dream. The longer you are in the job the more attached you will become and you will lose the oppurtunity to be what you want to be.

[lehighguy]

My main concerns summarized are:
1) I probably don't want to do poker more then 5-10 years. I want to open my own business at some point.

2) I don't know if I'm good enough.

Two really worries me.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate losing specifically because it makes me believe I couldn't go pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is worrisome.
The only thing I can say is try to find a job you love (or at least can tolerate). You're right that money doesn't make up for long hours at a job you hate. Right now it doesn't seem like you're consistently winning enough to go pro yet.
You said you're much better at your job than your peers. Why is this? What skills do you think you have in this regard. Think about where else they will be useful.

You and I are not ideological friends. Nonetheless, please believe that the following comes with the best of intentions and from the heart.

You need to change jobs. You know this. You cannot be miserable, let alone let it affect your health. And its not the hours. I work more like 80 hours a week and I love my job. It's that you are doing the wrong thing for you.

And that you are good at it is irrelevant. Eventually, your performance will slip and less talented people that love it all will pass you by. At law school, there were plenty of people there that were smarter than me. I graduated first in the class becuase I loved it more than they did.

Nor should you let fear of being a "quitter" haunt you. People change paths -- especially your people just starting out. If, as you say, you are willing to settle for a smaller salary there will be people out there that will hire you at that salary and let you prove your worth.

I won't comment on the poker-for-a-living option, except to say that I believe it to be a bad idea for MOST people. I don't know you well enough to say it is a bad idea for you.

As for game development: if this is your dream then go for it. Pound on doors and keep trying until you get SOMEONE to hire you. Offer to intern for a few months for free if that is what it takes to get in the door, then knock their socks off. Saying that these jobs only go to insidres and friends is not only nonsense (it's a growing industry), it's a cop-out. Persistence is the key. If you really want this then you can make it happen. It is only a question of whether you really want it.

I do not for a second buy that your job has to be mindless and soul-sucking, and that that is "just life". Even for those who are not as fortunate as I, who have found something I truly love, a job is what you make of it. If you can't get paid doing something you like then you need to find something that you don't hate and can do reasonably well, then fill your outside life with good things. BUT EVEN IN THAT SITUATION, your time at work doesn't have to suck. You should be able to find some good things in interaction with your coworkers alone.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been making the responsible decision everyday since I was 5. I've always been living for the future. Now that it is here I hate it. I'm totally lost and don't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "responsible decision" is typically the safe decision or the decision that society pushes us toward. It is not always the right decision for each individual. When I was 26 I had an ok career and a mediocre to bad marraige. I was getting older and my dream of going to law school was receeding. Eventually, I realized that if I waited any longer I'd be over 30 when I graduated, which I felt would be too late to start another career. It was now or never, but my then-wife would not have supported a decision to go back to school with the attendant fiscal and lifestyle consequences.

I eventually decided that if I did not go to law school, I would regret it for the rest of my life. I went, and it was the best decision I ever made. My marraige ended, but that was for the better, too. I have since remarried to the love of my life and I am about to become a father. I love what I do and make a ton of money. Life is not perfect (I REALLY, REALLY need to exercise more!), but I am very, very happy.

My decision to transform my life was not the "responsible" choice. My mother hated that my marraige ended and did not want me to make a decision that my then-wife would not agree with. My sister wouldn't talk to me for a year (we have since reconciled). I don't have a single friend from my former life.

But it was the right decision for me.

Follow _your_ dream, not the dream that others tell you you should have. And don't be an ass and wait until you're 26 or 27, like I did.

Good luck.

[Darryl_P]

There are some personality types for whom I wouldn't recommend poker because it will lead to certain disaster.

In your case, though, I think you should go for it. You are smart enough, hard-working enough, and level-headed enough to not overestimate your abilities. Beyond these 3 qualities there's nothing more you need IMO. Even you have no natural poker talent at all, you can compensate for that with hard work.

Just start small, set modest goals, and think long-term and you should be ok. And get the hell out of NYC and move somewhere where the cost of living is low.

I gave up a multi-million $$ career for a much more modest life and I haven't regretted it because I do what I enjoy, I have time for my family, and most of all I get to be me. I think you have a very similar personality type to mine and so I think being a pro gambler would suit you well.

I predict your biggest challenge will be to play aggressively enough and to get the right number of bluffs in. Honest guys usually have trouble bluffing or betting without the goods. But if you are aware your weakness and focus on improving them, then there's no reason you can't be successful IMO.

[andyfox]

I responded on the general forum. Hope some of it was helpful.

[lehighguy]

Bluffing is my weak point. Part of my downswing is because I'm trying to be a lot more aggressive and I can't seem to work it out.

I think I may stay on until the end of december.

1) I've paid rent through the end of december, the extra earnings will help the bankroll.

2) By then I'll know what business group I'm in, and I'll have a chance to see if things get any better.

[lehighguy]

That really helped dude. The whole thing. I'm gonna use this whole weekend to think things through.

[lehighguy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is worrisome.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to get affected by downswings alot more. I've really lightened up about it. The reason this last downswing is so hard is because my primary source of income, pacific poker, is changing rapidly.

[ QUOTE ]
You said you're much better at your job than your peers. Why is this? What skills do you think you have in this regard. Think about where else they will be useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just smart. I'm not a genuis, but if you just plain smart then you are successful at most anything you do. It has a lot of numbers and logic, which are my strong suits. Most of my co-workers are just rich spoiled kids, how hard can it be to outperform them.

I've only ever actually been in one situation where I wasn't at the top of the curve, and that was in genuis high school.

[Darryl_P]

The trick with bluffing IMO is that it depends heavily on the type of game you're in. In the really great loose games there's no need for it at all while in bigger tournaments when you get near the money it works like gold and should be done very liberally (except against the big stacks of course but even then you'll find some scaredy-cats among those).

Also don't underestimate the importance of game selection. The wee hours are great times to find some players on tilt or drunk or tired.

Probably what I just said is as obvious as a sore thumb but it can't hurt to repeat it I guess.

If you decide against poker I sure hope it's not because you think you can't win enough. That would be a very silly reason for someone with your background IMO. If you decide the lifestyle is not for you, then that's different. There's no glamor, it's a strike against you with most chicks, it can be boring and monotonous, you feel like a degenerate sometimes, you have to lie to a lot of people about what you do, etc. etc. But you'll be truly FREE, which (to me at least) is worth everything.

[lehighguy]

I bluff like a maniac in tournament situations. My 8k multi cash was all about bluffing, as is my success in SNGs.

But that is all preflop bluffing. I find that stuff alot easier because I know the odds and there is a smaller range of hands. Post flop bluffing in cash games is tougher for me.

[tolbiny]

"I really really hate my job"

Don't do it. I worked a job for 2.5 years that i liked at first and then disliked and then hated. I've worked a job for 50$ a week + room and board. Best year of my life.
Now i play 5/10 and 10/20 sh 15-20 hours a week, it is far superior to working. I'm not very skilled at poker (just read some of my posts), but the competition makes it easy enough to make money. A reasonably intelligent person who puts forth the effort (it seems obvious neither should be a problem) should be able to pull in 100k/yr at sh limit. I can't speak for NL.


Up want to retire in 15 years? what would you do with that time? If you can figure that out then you have a good jump a finding something you want to do full time. Don't work at a job you HATE. Jobs you dislike can be tolerable, but if your losing sleep for a job you hate? Nah man, give them your two weeks and roll. Life s short, despite what being 22 feels like.

[Utah]

I dont mean this to be harsh but this is my honest advice. Dont be idiot and throw your future away. You suck it up and do the damn job for a couple of years. Working in IB will give you a million options later in life. You do the job not because you like it but because that is what it takes to be successful.

I sucked it up at that age and I am in my mid 30s and can pretty much do what I want. I have several companies including a poker software startup that is in product beta testing.

There is ZERO chance I could do the things I am doing now if I hadnt put in the time in my early 20s.

I realize that even minutes can start to seem long in a job you hate but you have to think long term.

My two cents.

[bholdr]

lehighguy;

Always remember: The hubris will getcha' if you take life too seriously, my man....


Here:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 22...
I've been making the responsible decision everyday since I was 5. I've always been living for the future. Now that it is here I hate it. I'm totally lost and don't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

22? 22!!? okay... we've identified the problem... "oh, boo-hoo! I'm 22, I'm not happy, and i don't know what to do with my life!" geez. C'mon, now, that's perfectly normal and you should know that.

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

go pro, and i promise you won't love it as much as you do now. Poker is a great side gig but a terrible carrer, generally... well... maybe you're an exception... hell, you have an education already and money in the bank, and no responsibilities like a morgatage or kids, right? yer 22- you have a few years to screw around finding yourself- though poker might not be the best place to do so...

"My object in living is to unite
my avocation and my vocation
as my two eyes
make one in sight"

-Robert Frost






But, you know, whatever... YOU'RE 22!






oh...

...and go get laid. that'll clear a lot of this right up.

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mean this to be harsh but this is my honest advice. Dont be idiot and throw your future away. You suck it up and do the damn job for a couple of years. Working in IB will give you a million options later in life. You do the job not because you like it but because that is what it takes to be successful.

I sucked it up at that age and I am in my mid 30s and can pretty much do what I want. I have several companies including a poker software startup that is in product beta testing.

[/ QUOTE ]



There are two sides to this coin. I was sucking it up in an excellent career. In fact I would say I enjoyed the career to some extent. I was very well paid with fantastic future prospects, however I had pretty much no life outside work. The plan was to continue until I was 35-40 and then break away with a ton of money and live life.

At the age of 31 I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and everything changed. There are many things that I cannot now do that I should have done when I had the chance, in part I view all that time working my butt off as a waste. I should have been out enjoying life.

I'm not saying leave, and I'm not saying don't. Just that there are two sides to this "suck it up until later in life" coin.

To make the point more bluntly, you can plan for all sorts of futures only to have them taken away, sometimes it's OK to just live for now.

[Felix_Nietsche]

I really really hate my job.
************************************************** ******
Could you be mores specific? Is it the work or the hours?


I even turned down applying for other jobs because I would have to use my company as a refernce and they would probably fire me if they thought I was applying for other jobs.
************************************************** ******
Wrong way to think. If they knew you had other options you would be marketable and therefore more desirable.


Pros of Job
Money.
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Money may not buy happiness but it paves the way.


Moreover, I don't even want money. I just want enough for food and booze and videogames. I want to spend time hanging out with my friends. I've never been able to spend all the money I've gotten.
************************************************** *****
It is good you understand that money it not a high priority for you.


Good Resume Builder
If I do this, I will be able to get another job much easier. I don't know if it will be worth much outside banking, but its gotta be impressive. If I quit, I'll be labeled a quiter for life, right? I turned down my shot. Who's gonna hire me and spend money training me?
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If they are investing money in you, they want to get as a return on their investment. If you quit your job without having another job you will have an employment gap that you will have to answer to on your next several jobs. HR departments are trained to spot work gaps and look for potential problems. Not a good thing so avoid it.


I'm good at this
I may hate it, but I'm very good at it. I'm better then most of the other trainees. The company is always trying to push me foward.
*************************************************
Wow! Do you really hate the job or do you hate something else about it. Such as:
1. The excessive hours.
2. The way it creeps into your personal life.
3. or something else.
It is KEY that you understand this before you make a major decison. If it is the hours there are ways to give the illusion of working more hours. A friend of mine worked for a company where the official hours were 8-5 but the unwritten rule was you weren't a good worker unless you worked 6-6. He solved this problem by taking 3 hour lunch breaks. Then he was able to train his boss by having early days where he work a half day one day a week. He became a master politican at work. The funny thing was, at first they were going to fire him and the put him on probation. He wrote some books on his experiences. His first book was Work Smart, Not Hard (not in print) and Be the Person You Want to Be. His name is John Emerick.


Cons
I don't know if I can make it another 2 years. I don't know if I can make it another 2 months. Each day is killing my soul. Minimum workweek is 60 hours. Sometimes more. Because I hate work so much I've developed a crippling insomnia. I don't want to go to sleep because I have to wake up and go to work. I'm getting less then four or five hours every night. If I had work today I would have gotten two. It feels like its getting worse. And it makes my waking hours unbearable. It's like I'm niether awake or asleep. I drink two red bulls a day. This is killing me.
************************************************** ***
This is bad. If you worked less hours would this change things? Go to a health food store and buy a product called "tranquilnite" by NewChapter. This stuff is MAGIC!!!! Whenever I want a good night sleep, I take a pill and I DREAM the entire night and wake up 100% refreshed and rested.


Also, I hate corporate America in general. I hate having a boss. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I own my own business and report to myself. I don't think a different kind of banking job is the answer.
*************************************************
Everybody has a boss. Most pro poker players have to kiss up to their best donators (if they are smart).


Play Poker for a Living
In summary, I've made about $19,000 this year. I would estimate I played an average of 10 hours a week over the first 6 months, mostly at one table of pacific for the first I would be satisfied with playing poker for 50k/year, but I worry about the future of its popularity. I kinduv want to make $100k per year so I can save 50k of it. That way if poker dies in 5 years I'll have $250k to start my own business.
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If you want to be a pro player I think you need accomplish the following:
1. Master NLHE (5/10).
2. Master Omaha Hi (5/10)
3. Bankroll = $30-50K (for 10/20 NLHE you need 50K).
Keep in mind as a poker pro you will be paying almost 50% taxes on you first $87K. There is a 15.3% SS Tax that you will have to cough up for the first 87K. Also it is possible to have terrible luck for up to 30K hands. You can destroy an entire bankroll if you can't manage your bad streaks. You need to master more than one game because sometimes the NLHE tables get to tight and the Omaha tables become RED HOT! It is important to diversify your poker skills as well as your investments.


Lastly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it. I hate losing specifically because it makes me believe I couldn't go pro.
***********************************************
Kewl. Be aware if you go pro that you need to create a company name and open a business account. I am technically a "Gaming Consultant" on my business account but I play poker full time. You will need to create a company name and go to the county clerk and get an Assumed Name Certificate before opening a business account.


Game Developement:
I would really like to break into this industry, but I have no skills. Sure, I understand game balance and mechanics extremely well, but those jobs usually go to more senoir staff. I have no graphics art talent at all, which is what most people in that industry do. There was an opening for a community manager at blizzard, but I didn't send my application because people said my company would probably fire me if they found out. I get the feeling most jobs in that industry go to friends and family anyway, seeing as everyone wants one. Nevertheless, I wish I had tried.
************************************************** **
Poker now game development. You need to go through a self analysis to clarify your thoughts.


Final Thoughts
4 months ago life was perfect. I had tons of good friends, I have fun all day, I was making tons of money at poker, and I have tons of free time. 4 months later I'm ready to keel over dead. Poker isn't going well, i have no good friends, my co-workers are shallow tools, i hate my job, i have no free time. I can't even get more then 4 hours of sleep. It just all went so wrong so quick.
************************************************** *
Never play poker when emotional upset. If you want to be a poker pro you need to prove you are a consistent winner for two years minimum at 5/10 or higher.


I've been making the responsible decision everyday since I was 5. I've always been living for the future. Now that it is here I hate it. I'm totally lost and don't know what to do.
************************************************** ***********
Write your thoughts on paper. Like a diary. Take some long walks at night alone (carry a gun to be safe /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Start having some mental time when you can work out your thoughts. Right now you should not be making a major decision.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow! Do you really hate the job or do you hate something else about it. Such as:
1. The excessive hours.
2. The way it creeps into your personal life.
3. or something else.
It is KEY that you understand this before you make a major decison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Felix talking sense? what's going on here? (you've made a very important point here- i could rephrase it as: "Treat the desiese and not the symptoms- but be sure to know the difference first") i hate it when i have to aggree with you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[ QUOTE ]
carry a gun to be safe

[/ QUOTE ]

that's better.

[lehighguy]

Well, you asked why I hate my job, so...

1) Minimum 60 hour workweek. If they put me on the desk I think they are hinting at, it could be 80 hour minimum. 15 min for lunch.

2) I sit and code spreadsheets all day. Thrilling.

3) You are expected to suck up to people you don't like and [censored] all the time. I love telling people to buy [censored] products with a straight face so I can make money of them.

4) I'm not an investment banker. I don't know how to convey this to someone that isn't in the business. But being an investment banker is about more then just doing a job during the day. It's like an entire lifestyle, an entire personality, an entire way of interacting with people. It just isn't me. I feel so out of place. I feel like I can't be friends with these people and we have nothing in common.

In response to your little suggestion, I work directely next to the people I'm with, and the work is too important. There is no faking it.

As for poker, do I really need to play 1000NL to make a living. I'm not planning to do this live. In an age of multi-tabling and rakeback is that really necessary.

Also, I may start to get into limit again. I haven't decided if I should specialize in one game or play many different ones.

If you don't outright quit, I think you at least have to compromise and start applying to other jobs. Almost everyone has to work a job they hate at some point in their lives. However, your situation really sucks because you feel like you can't even apply to other jobs lest you get fired. That feeling of being totally trapped would really weigh on my psyche and I imagine it's one of the main things crushing your soul, also.

Therefore, at least make a deal with yourself that you will apply to other jobs so that you don't crush any and all hope you have of ever getting out of this job. If you get fired, then you can take a shot at poker. If you find a more suitable job, then you'll be able to play more poker in the evening and better guage your prospects for going pro.

Good luck.

[Felix_Nietsche]

OK.....your job sucks. The hours alone will make your quality of life lousy.


As for poker, do I really need to play 1000NL to make a living. I'm not planning to do this live. In an age of multi-tabling and rakeback is that really necessary.
************************************************** **
I don't play sites w/ rake back. Can you recommend any with decent table selection?


I haven't decided if I should specialize in one game or play many different ones.
************************************************** *******
Good limit players can make 2 BB/hr. With rakeback and multi-tabling then MAYBE it is possible to make a living at lower levels. My goals are to specialize in NLHE(ring and 6-handed), Omaha Hi(ring and 6-handed), and eventually heads-up. In HU poker there are tons of macho players who blow tons of money trying to be macho in HU poker.

[lehighguy]

I play on Pacific for NL and eurobet for tournies. Pacific is really good, but perhaps it is getting less good these days. I ahve rakeback as well.

I'm currently trying to set up a rakeback at party and caribean.

[Utah]

I think you make an excellent point. I guess I was reacting a bit more to the common attitude of young kids who really hate their first jobs and they dont see enough into the future.

You can just open so many future doors in so many areas with Investment Banking experience on your resume. I think the same thing goes for those who spend several years in the soul sucking experience of being a "big 5" or BCG/McKenzie type consultant.

[jcx]

Money may not buy happiness, but it does create options. I'd rather bust my ass in my 20's and save up some money than goof off (which I did) and then be stuck in your 30's in a job you hate (like me) because you have a family to support and the job you currently have is all you are qualified to do that pays decent money.

Another thing to consider - in your 20's you are still full of vigor. You can work 10-12 hours, go out at night and still get up in the morning. I'm 33 and while that ain't old, there is a definite difference in my energy level from when I was 23.

My advice is to suck it up and take the job. Live on Top Ramen for a few years. In 5-7 years you can walk away from that job with enough saved to pay cash for a nice house (prob not in NYC, but in many cities in America). Then you can start your business (be it poker or something else) on a solid foundation, not with scared money.

Lastly, remember to count your blessings. Not too many new college grads are looking at making $100K+ 2 years into their 1st job. And don't ever underestimate the value of having F you money. It can make all the difference in the world. Good luck.

[lehighguy]

I know I couldn't do this for 5-7 years. I doubt I could do it for two. I hate going things I don't like, and that hate eventually spills over in performance. I'm 8th in my training class out of 80 on the exams, but I could easily be at least top three. It is so hard to stay and do more and more when you hate it. I may not be able to continue my current level of performance.

A similair thing happened when I switched to a finance major. I went from As to Cs. Not for lack of ability, but because I hated it so much I couldn't put up with it.

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
You can just open so many future doors in so many areas with Investment Banking experience on your resume. I think the same thing goes for those who spend several years in the soul sucking experience of being a "big 5" or BCG/McKenzie type consultant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with this of course, and I think my situation is probably the exception rather than the rule, but I felt it might have given the OP some alternative pespective.

For what it's worth to the OP, your posts really read like you've made up your mind and are having trouble admitting it to yourself. Just go for it and set a 9-12 month deadline when you'll decide to go back to your old career or not (which I assume will be at least somewhat possible?).

Good luck and don't second guess yourself, no one of us has a crystal ball and we just have to roll with the punches.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I don't know enough about American worklife etc. to give any advice, but whatever you do: good luck!

[adios]

I've read most of the responses in this thread but not all so maybe someone has already stated this. My take is that if you were making more money and the hours weren't as long your job would be somewhat more tolerable at least. Why not hit your employers up for more money and less hours? If they blow you off find something else perhaps on Wall Street or somewhere else. If you get stonewalled by your employer then I think it offers a perfectly legitimate reason to seek employment elsewhere not that you needed one since IMO if someone offers something that's more desirable to you you're not obligated to stay. From my experience, company policies are not as rigid as employers make them appear to be. They'll bend if they value you and don't want to lose you. As far as poker is concerned, I think you probably want a bigger roll but if you're good enough and your nut is low you can make it on what you've got now. Personally I believe that you one should play many games well but NL hold'em does present some excellent opportunities so I couldn't fault one for pursuing that game. Limit hold'em is good too but the games have gotten tougher over the years IMO. I definitely wouldn't leave out Omaha, Omaha/8, Stud and Stud/8 if you're really thinking about making your living playing poker FWIW. I also wanted to comment on your being responsible, nothing wrong with that and IMO you're probably not missing a whole lot by being "irresponsible." So to sum it all up, IMO the advice to suck it up is ok but you don't have to bend over for your current employer either. To pursue poker, I think you probably need a bigger roll and perhaps need to be a little more well rounded in what you play. I realize plenty of posters on these forums make money by being specialists more or less but FWIW I don't think that's the easiest way.

[whiskeytown]

lehigh - have we met when I was in NYC in July - trying to remember if it was your apt. I saw - I should ask TT if we met you.

Here's my advice to you. Option 3 is a long shot - and you may hate that worse then your other job when you're done - some of those designers get worked non stop for weeks - some sue for back wages and overtime, etc...

Option 1 or 2 - You say Option 1 doesn't allow you to save, but how would quitting and jumping into Option 2 be either less stressful or any better? -

I really have to be honest - I almost have to say option 1 just by virtue of the fact options 2 and 3 are such long bombs.

----------------------------
But I'm not gonna say option 1 - here's why.

1. - You're 22 - you've got plenty of time to fall hard on your ass and come out of it - as long as when you realize you can't win at #2, you get OUT, and fast.

I do think living in NYC and being a full time professional is a pretty unrealistic goal. I always thought if I was gonna turn pro, esp. online, I'd go move to some desolate internet connected place that I only paid half the rent I pay a month in Minneapolis. My good man, Brooks West (http://www.geocities.com/brooks_west/), liked Fargo when he lived there cause it was so cheap to live and it wasn't expensive (back then) to drive long distances even to Minneapolis for gigs and back. As a person on a limited income (part time musician) - he made his bucks go further there. He paid maybe $300/month for a downtown apt. over a store a few years ago.

So I'd move there and try to make a run at it....but NOT in NYC unless this roommate situation pans out...

3. - I truly think you're going to change your mind AGAIN on what you want to do for a living or what you do for a career before you get settled down. While I'm sure the idea of getting married and knocking a girl up may not sound appealing at 22, sometimes it gets more so as you get older - and so you'll probably be making a change if that part of your life switches around.

If I were you...I would stick with option 1 and spend every waking minute of spare time on option 2 - improve your game - your ROI's are good - but I sorta feel like I'd expect to see better before a person goes pro. 1.5BB/hr is an acceptable rate in the old days, when you were playing on a live table with dealers, but I'd expect it to be almost double with double the number of expected hands per hour.

But you have to acquire one more attitude. You have to try to just let the stress blow off you while you're still doing #1 -

I think you're settled on doing #2, so while you're still saving and building the BR, just remember that - don't get stressed out - take in the tunes to work, take long lunch hrs and extra breaks - try to think like Office Space - LOL.

Best of luck to you - let us know what ya do.

RB

[whiskeytown]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just smart. I'm not a genuis, but if you just plain smart then you are successful at most anything you do. It has a lot of numbers and logic, which are my strong suits. Most of my co-workers are just rich spoiled kids, how hard can it be to outperform them.

I've only ever actually been in one situation where I wasn't at the top of the curve, and that was in genuis high school.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exactly describing my experience with Networking - being a "genius" isn't head knowledge per se, like who is the king of so and so in 1628, but it's analytical and rational thinking and problem solving - it's how quickly can you find the answer when you have no info right now.

That's why all IQ tests are written in such a way that it's nearly impossible to solve them in the alloted time - they can not only see how many you got right, but how many in a limited time period - this measures your real IQ - the more you can get done, because you're doing and finding quicker solutions to problems then other people.

It's hard to explain to other people how that works or how you're good at stuff, but it's really just like figuring out how to ride a bike, but with Ethernet packets or spreadsheets, in your case.

While you're at it, see if you qualify for MENSA /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[Nepa]

First off I would like to say that I don't feel bad for you. It is surprising to me that you claim you are a real smart guy, went to college for a few year and went into a field that you don't seem to like. It seems to me that if you were as smart as you claim you won't have got yourself into this situation. I'm sorry if this sounds like a flame but you did open the door.

If you don't like Wall Street get out. You can get the same type of job that you have in a different city and it would be alot cheaper to live. i.e. Baltimore I worked in New York a few times and I didn't like working there myself.

[ QUOTE ]
I've got between $25,000-$30,000 in the bank.

[/ QUOTE ] This is great but you do have Student loan debt.

Debt is Dumb! If you don't believe me check out this guy Dave Ramsey.

Debt is Dumb!!!! (http://www.daveramsey.com/)

[ QUOTE ]
That way if poker dies in 5 years

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think this is going to happen?

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe in 15 years taxes on the top bracket will be 70% because Social Security is bankrupt. I could be chasing nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, Bush is only going to be in office 3 more years.

[ QUOTE ]
It's like I'm niether awake or asleep. I drink two red bulls a day. This is killing me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know someone that died this year after drinking red bull.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I hate corporate America in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, Boycott Wal-Mart!

[ QUOTE ]
I hate having a boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who doesn't?

[ QUOTE ]
Because I hate work so much I've developed a crippling insomnia.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would see a doctor.

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, I don't even want money. I just want enough for food and booze and videogames.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the most fun years of my life I didn't have a lot of money but I drank very very Heavy.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be satisfied with playing poker for 50k/year, but I worry about the future of its popularity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would worry more about making 50k a year. Look at it. You claim to have a bankroll of between 15K and 30K and your planing on making 50K a year. There are serious holes in this plan and I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are. It sounds to me that you are going to leave yourself short on bankroll somewhere along the road basically putting yourself out of business.

Dude, I not really trying to bust on you and I do wish you luck but you might have to come up with some different plans that don't include poker as a main source of income at this point.

[lehighguy]

Well, debt is part of the financial aid package at any major college these days. I also got over 20k/year in scholarships, but it was contingient on taking out 5k/year in loans.

What odds would you put on the game being as good in 5 years? When you give me those odds I think you'll have your answer.

A dem taking office is even more likely for a big top bracket tax increase, but lets not get to into it. It was more a proxy for the future being so uncertain 10-20 years out.

The poker bankroll stuff is taken at face worth, I'm worried about my bankroll myself. But the rest of you post seemed really jumpy and wierd.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, debt is part of the financial aid package at any major college these days. I also got over 20k/year in scholarships, but it was contingient on taking out 5k/year in loans.

[/ QUOTE ]

You couldn't get a job? Your poker bankroll couldn't cover this? It just doesn't add up.

They can't force you to take a loan.

[lastchance]

Very simple advice: Get a new job. There's got to be something you really love doing, pays decently, and has better hours. Stop worrying about getting fired. If you hate your job this much, go somewhere else. Oh, and take a week off to play poker and see how much you like poker after that.

[Borodog]

Three words: Move to Vegas.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
What odds would you put on the game being as good in 5 years? When you give me those odds I think you'll have your answer.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the odds are really good that the games will still be really good. What are you thinking? That bad players are going to wake up someday and become great poker players? I sure with a high degree of confidence that there are plenty of people that come on to twoplustwo with hopes of becoming better players but they never really become better player for a very wide range of reasons. I know someone that buys every new book that comes out, studies, watches every WPT and ESPN event and still dumps over a grand a month playing poker. The worse part about it is he isn't a horrible player but he does have serious problems with bankroll management.

[ QUOTE ]
A dem taking office is even more likely for a big top bracket tax increase, but lets not get to into it. It was more a proxy for the future being so uncertain 10-20 years out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think you should waste your time worrying about this. You are not in this bracket.

[lehighguy]

Poker is a fad. I don't think that the players will get better, I think they will move onto the next fad.

[lehighguy]

Yes they can. It is part of the financial aid package. You have to accept teh entire package.

Did I save money in college, of course. I had a job and played poker. That is why I have 25-30k in the bank. There is no reason for me to pay off zero interest student loans when I can use that money for my bankroll or interest earning investments. Even now the interest rates on student loans are below prime and I'm basically financing my bankroll at an extremely low rate because of federal subsidies.

As I discussed with my friend the other day, you should almost never pay off student loans early. At the very least you can make enough interest investing it to cover the interest being paid out. And should you have a higher ROI investment available, such as a poker bankroll, then it remains a financially sound decision. It's like I'm borrowing at 3% and lending at 6%, just like the bank does.

Overall though you seem to be incredibly judgemental about debt and other people rather then exploring possible rational reasons for thier decisions.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall though you seem to be incredibly judgemental about debt and other people rather then exploring possible rational reasons for thier decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if I came off as being Harsh. You post just turned me the wrong way for a couple of reasons.

As far as debt goes I guess I drank too much of Dave Ramsey's Kool Aid.

Proverbs 22:7 says ‘The borrower is slave to the lender.’ Been there, done that.”

Quote from Dave Ramsey

If you want to be a slave it is fine by me. Good luck on the new career choice.

This thread started off OK, but it's now dragged on a long time and has nothing to do with politics. Hows about an old-fashioned locking to get this thread off the front page?

[KaneKungFu123]

posting on the politics board is -EV big time. why would you want advice from these losers?

[Degen]

funny how life works

me and you are a lot alike right up to now in your life...i graduated in 04 and took a sales job cuz it was the right thing to do

i flipped the bird to that and conventional wisdom and started a company...then when that was a success i further spit into the wind and decided to be a professional poker player in July-about a month ago i took a trip to thailand and loved it...i went home, sold a bunch of stuff and put everything else in storage, and am having my apartment leased...and i am moving to thailand to sit on the beach, read and play online poker for a living...on less than a grand a month (and thats living very well in thailand). currently im in munich, so i guess you could say ive already moved...im flying back to bangkok in a couple of days

it is heaven...but you have got to have the skills first...and plenty of rainy day savings.


ironic thing is im doing a lot of reading now on wall street (fooled by randomness, liars poker, reminiscences etc) and i want to move to new york really really bad and be a trader...though i must say, i want to do this a whole lot less after reading your post

i started a blog a few months back (link in my profile) for anybody who wants to follow along, thailand should be profitable and fun


good luck to you man