What to do with my life (need advice bad)?

[lehighguy]

First some background. I'm 22. I just graduated college a little over 3 months ago. Now I work for an investment bank in NYC where I live. Our training program is just finishing, and afterwards I'm going to start on some desk in sales and trading (front-office) for those in the biz.

So about my future. I have three options as I see it:

1) Keep working on Wall Street:
I really really hate my job. When I was a freshmen in college my Aunt got me an interview without asking me (this is very young, most don't do it until thier junoir year). I did a summer internship and was very successful. They invited me back for another the next year and offered to pay for part of my college (which I turned down because I didn't want to be locked into working for them). We are just finishing up training, and I will then be assinged to a business group. I didn't really want this job, I took it because I didn't know what else to do. I did it because it was the "right" thing to do. I even turned down applying for other jobs because I would have to use my company as a refernce and they would probably fire me if they thought I was applying for other jobs. So this is where I'm at now.

Pros of Job
Money. I make $55,000 salary +$10k signing bonus right out of college. Two more years and I'll be making six figures. 10 years out I could be making a $million/year. However, my expenses are ginormous. Rent, food, and taxes in NYC are rediculous. I have no spending money left. I can barely save. And as I make more money, I'm expected to spend more. It's part of the business. I'm expected to hob nob with my rich clients and co-workers and spend. I turned down going to vegas with them this week because it was too expensive. It will only get worse. Also, later on they try and compensate you with stock and options, which I can't keep if I leave the company. The whole thing is designed to lock you in. I've even met people that have all the money they need to retire, but they have been doing this so long they can't. Everything they do, everyone they know, is tied to the bank. They can't get out. The idea of retiring at 35 is really appealing to me, but who knows if I'll be able too. Maybe in 15 years taxes on the top bracket will be 70% because Social Security is bankrupt. I could be chasing nothing.

Moreover, I don't even want money. I just want enough for food and booze and videogames. I want to spend time hanging out with my friends. I've never been able to spend all the money I've gotten. I've got between $25,000-$30,000 in the bank. Even when I was 17 I hate a huge bank account. I wouldn't know what to do with it.

Good Resume Builder
If I do this, I will be able to get another job much easier. I don't know if it will be worth much outside banking, but its gotta be impressive. If I quit, I'll be labeled a quiter for life, right? I turned down my shot. Who's gonna hire me and spend money training me?

I'm good at this
I may hate it, but I'm very good at it. I'm better then most of the other trainees. The company is always trying to push me foward.

Cons
I don't know if I can make it another 2 years. I don't know if I can make it another 2 months. Each day is killing my soul. Minimum workweek is 60 hours. Sometimes more. Because I hate work so much I've developed a crippling insomnia. I don't want to go to sleep because I have to wake up and go to work. I'm getting less then four or five hours every night. If I had work today I would have gotten two. It feels like its getting worse. And it makes my waking hours unbearable. It's like I'm niether awake or asleep. I drink two red bulls a day. This is killing me.

Also, I hate corporate America in general. I hate having a boss. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I own my own business and report to myself. I don't think a different kind of banking job is the answer.

2) Play Poker for a Living
This would be a dream solution, if I thought I was good enough. I started playing 3/6 on party one year ago. I made 1.7bb/100 four tabling during fall semester and played 5/10 short towards the end.

When I came back in Spring semester I really picked up my game. I played 5/10 on pacific and made about 4k. Then I started playing 200NL and made great moeny too. I played in the sunday tournament about 10 times ($100 buy-in) and cashed in 3rd once for $8,000. When they opened up $600NL I did very well, up 8k. However, I've gone down 5k since then, including 1k last night (first time I played in two months).

I also played $50+5 tournies over the summer and made $4.89/tourney (ROI = 9%). At 40min per tourney that is $7.62/hour. I play 4 tournies at once so that is close to $28/hour. This is over 541 tournies. If you include my shots at 100s and 200s the results go down. I make $3.85/tourney (ROI 6%), $6.01/hour times 4 tables. So $24/hour over 601 tournies. None of this includes rakeback. I would add $1300 in rakeback since Feb including tournaments and my 50NL and 100NL cash play on eurobet. I also earned rakeback from pacific, but not as much.

In summary, I've made about $19,000 this year. I would estimate I played an average of 10 hours a week over the first 6 months, mostly at one table of pacific for the first 4. My main source of income has been pacific, which is getting harder to beat everyday and still offers only one table. Avg pots are comming way down, more sharks are feeding. This last 5k downswing is destroying my confidence.

I would be satisfied with playing poker for 50k/year, but I worry about the future of its popularity. I kinduv want to make $100k per year so I can save 50k of it. That way if poker dies in 5 years I'll have $250k to start my own business. I'd really like to open an internet gaming cafe or something. I know they won't loan money to a gambler, so I'm gonna need my own capital. Thing is, I just don't know if I have enough natural talent to do that. If I was gonna make it, shouldn't I have done it by now?

Bankroll considerations. I have like $25-30k in the bank. Of that money 10k + interest in my signing bonus. If I leave the bank anytime in the next 9 months or so they will keep it. So now I'm down to $15-20k. I still have to pay taxes on poker winning, so that could be like 7-10k right?. Down to like 8k or so. I have prepaid next month rent, so if I work until the end of decemeber I could probably save another 2k or so. I have $20k of student loans. Most are low interest and only require $50 payments each month, but 1k or 2k of it is at 7%, so I want to pay it off.

If I quit I will move back into my friends apartment off campus. Rent will be only a few hundred a month. I won't need a car. I already have a 21 inch monitor and a new computer for poker, as well as all the poker software. I can't think of any big expenses.

Lastly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it. I hate losing specifically because it makes me believe I couldn't go pro. If I had made $100,000 this year and lost $5k I wouldn't care. Specific bad beat hands don't bother me. It's when I think I can't do it that it bothers me, because I want to do it so bad. I study, I read, I'm trying so hard.

I'm a big gamer. I played chess on a state champion chess team. I play every strategy game ever invented. I was an extremely good RTS player. Poker is like the king of games, and I love playing it. What hurts about my job is I'm so tired I can't play poker at all anymore. I'm being forced to give it up.

3) Game Developement
I would really like to break into this industry, but I have no skills. Sure, I understand game balance and mechanics extremely well, but those jobs usually go to more senoir staff. I have no graphics art talent at all, which is what most people in that industry do. There was an opening for a community manager at blizzard, but I didn't send my application because people said my company would probably fire me if they found out. I get the feeling most jobs in that industry go to friends and family anyway, seeing as everyone wants one. Nevertheless, I wish I had tried.

I had straight As the firs two years of college and loved it because I was doing what I wanted, but dropped to Cs the last two years. I started doing a finance major junoir year because it "made sense" given what my job was. I hated the classes with a passion, and while I got As on the tests I usually slacked off so much and mouthed off so much I ended up getting Cs. Between that and quiting my last job I can't see someone hiring me.

Final Thoughts

4 months ago life was perfect. I had tons of good friends, I have fun all day, I was making tons of money at poker, and I have tons of free time. 4 months later I'm ready to keel over dead. Poker isn't going well, i have no good friends, my co-workers are shallow tools, i hate my job, i have no free time. It just all went so wrong so quick.

I talked to my parents about this and the jist of what they said is the life sucks. My best years are behind me, work is suppose to be totally miserable, and it won't change. Just suck it up.

I talked to one of my roomates who is 30. He has been doing 9-5 for 8 years now. He absolutely hates every single day of work. He says he just goes into a trance for 8 hours and pretends he isn't there. When I told him I work 60, 70, 80 hours a week he said he was sorry for me. At least his off hours made up for his on hours. No such luck for me. I asked him how he keeps doing something he hates every single day, and he said its just life. He's 30 and miserable and totally resigned to fate, am I gonna be like that in 8 years?

I've been making the responsible decision everyday since I was 5. I've always been living for the future. Now that it is here I hate it. I'm totally lost and don't know what to do.

[j0ep0ker]

You seem like you are good at poker. If you can manage your money and do it as a living, then you should. You can grind it out playing poker and have days off whenever you want. You can stay up all the time and sleep in. You should try it.

[j0ep0ker]

Play poker

[j0ep0ker]

How would it feel to wake up on a monday morning... see everyone else going to work and then you sitting down in a tournament???

I really don't see how people can wake up each morning and go work all day. Playing poker is a job. Lots of people do it for a living and it's easy for some. And don't lose your confidence. There are always worse players than you at the game. And even if they aren't, you can still get lucky. You have the skills for poker.... so start playing for a living.

[j0ep0ker]

sht... i just remembered... internet poker is rigged... so if you want to play for a living... then you gotta play live.

[lehighguy]

You sound like you playing for a livig now. This true?

[j0ep0ker]

hahaha no... I still live at home with no job and no money. I will play poker for a living one day. I know I can... I just can't go work full time like you are doing... that's not right to have to work that many hours.... you dont want to be doing this for years and years do you? Like you said.. i dont care about money... Just as long as i have enough to eat and stuff then i'm fine...

[j0ep0ker]

Take that money... give me 1K... then start grinding out 5-10 or whatever and live off that. You can easily beat 5-10 right? By the way... you should go to a casino once a week on fridays. they gamble so much...

[andyfox]

To a certain extent, your parents are correct. Nothing in life is easy, it all requires hard work, whether you're an investment banker, poker player, or shepherd.

Having said that, though, you shouldn't be doing something you hate. You should make sure, though, that it really is the work you hate, rather than the idea of working, before you opt out. I have some investment banker friends and they've all done extraordinarily well.

There's an argument to be made for "Do what you love, and the rest will follow." There's also a counter-argument. After all, I love boozing, gambling, and womanizing--what will follow from that will surely be prison or death (or both). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Please don't be offended by the following: you're immature. When you say, "I just want enough for food and booze and videogames," that shows me that you’re still a little boy to some extent. You’ve obviously got brains. I could tell that from your political posts; your educational and professional achievements confirm it. But I’d be wary of making decisions that can have long-term consequences, such as quitting my job to play poker, while I was still just interested in food, booze, and video games.

You can be a semipro player. With your talent and education couldn’t you find a job similar to the one you now have that could be closer to 40 hours? Why not see a career professional who could help give you some ideas or contacts or get you in touch with other people. You could then use the “extra” time to be a semi-pro player and see if a full-time poker career is something that suits you and that you’re suited for.

[j0ep0ker]

this job is causing him stress. He can't sleep. He might get into a depression or something. and hes not immature by saying he just wants money for food booze and games... some people just dont care about having lots of extra money. maybe you are just not fit to be working this many hours? try to get less hours like that guy said... or play poker.

[AdamBragar]

Your story is pretty similar to mine. I live in NYC. I graduated college in May of 2004 and went into consulting. I hated the place I worked for and quit in July of this year and now I play poker for a living. With that said, here's some advice:

1) I wouldn't quit your job until you've worked there for a year. It looks bad on your resume that you quit your first job after a few months. Pretty much every friend I have hated their job after a few months, but some of them like it now. I'd give it some time and maybe you'll like it and if you still hate it, you can count down to your one year anniversary and then quit. Also, if you work for one of the big IBanks, it will look really good on your resume for whatever else you want to do if you work there for a year.

2) Front office IBanking jobs pay a ton of money. This is true, but if you don't like the job, you will be miserable. You have to work so much in IBanking, it basically consumes your life. Don't let the money suck you in.

3) Have a plan for life after poker. I'm only playing for a living for a year. Hopefully, in fall 06, I'll be going to get a doctorate in Econ. You graduated college and it seems like your smart enough to have a lot of possibilities, so even if you decide to play poker for a living, there might be a time when either the Poker Golden Age stops or you decide you want to do something else. So even while playing poker or beforehand, look into other options. Start trying to contact people in Game Development. It seems most jobs in a lot of industries are through connections. So, start making connections.

That's all I can think of right now. PM me if you have any more questions or anything.

[Nomad84]

[ QUOTE ]
He might get into a depression or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like he's already there.

Only you will be able to decide what's best for you. I think we all agree that more money is better. Even so, that doesn't mean that the jobs that pay well are better than those that don't, as you've discovered. I decided a few years ago that I won't let myself make big decisions that affect my enjoyment of life based on the money involved. This includes jobs, trips, going out with friends, etc. I have enough money that I can afford to enjoy myself, and as long as that remains the case, I don't want to stress over it. I still don't know what I'll be doing in a few months after I graduate, but I will do my best not to take a job that puts me in a position like yours. What is your ultimate career goal? Do you even know? I would like to work for NASA in the future if possible. I am so interested in working there that I don't even care how much money I can make there. Since I don't expect to be able to work there right out of college, I'm going to try to follow a path that will eventually lead there, including grad school and possibly working for the Air Force. It doesn't sound like your job is leading you towards anything that you really want to do. It's hard to change course in life, but sometimes it is necessary. I went to a high school that is widely know for it's advanced curriculum. I learned a ton and met a lot of great people. I thought I wanted to go to a big name college, but I didn't even know what kind of career I was interested in. After my first year there (it's a 2 year program) I decided that it wasn't worth it. It was hard to leave, but the stress was far to great. It's a risk vs. reward kind of thing. I decided that not continuing at this school wouldn't ultimately affect my career path, while sticking with it would surely drive me nuts. For me, it wasn't worth staying. It's a different situation since there wasn't money involved, or course, but you said all you want is enough money to get by. If I were in your situation, I'd be looking for a way out. I'm not sure what your monthly nut would be if you quit and moved, but you make it sound like you could get by on $2k/month or so if you needed to. I think I would seriously consider moving in with your friends and playing 3/6 or so for a while. Maybe take a couple of months to regroup and get yourself in a better state of mind, enjoying life again. I'd plan on trying to get another job at that point though. If you are definitely beating the game, I still like the idea of a second job until you've built up a significant bankroll + a few months of expenses + paid off all loans. All of this is just my personal opinion. You are the only one that can decide whether or not the benefits of your current job (pay, etc.) are worth what you are going through, and if quitting would improve things or not.

[lehighguy]

I've worked hard all my life. I worked very hard in school. I worked and went to school in high school. When I did my first internship I worked so hard I had to go to the doctor because I was coughing up blood, he said it was from overwork. Made me take time off. I don't think laziness is the factor here.

As I said, I've ALWAYS made the responsible decision. I always studied instead of partied, I was always polite instead of rude, I always did my fair share when I didn't have to. I'm just not sure what that has gotten me.

I never had any interest in this field. I never even applied for my first internship, my Aunt just called me one day and told me to go for an interview. I turned down having them pay part of my college if I went to work for them.

I can't look for another job while working there. If they call for a reference, I'll be fired the next day. It isn't worth thier time to train me if I'm gonna be out the door the next day. So if I'm gonna do anything else, I'm gonna have to quit. As for similair jobs, I just hate finance in general.

The other thing is, I don't like the people who work in finance. They are all very shallow. We have none of the same hobbies. I find it hard to be friends with them.

The other job I considered when I was young was politics. I worked for an NYC councilmen and on a congressional campaign. But working in politics is different from talking about politics or policy. Its mostly dirty and scummy. Driving around trying to "expose" the other guy. All sorts of other stuff. Unless your actually setting policy your mostly just trashing the other guy or churning out propoganda for a living.

[lehighguy]

[ QUOTE ]

1) I wouldn't quit your job until you've worked there for a year. It looks bad on your resume that you quit your first job after a few months. Pretty much every friend I have hated their job after a few months, but some of them like it now. I'd give it some time and maybe you'll like it and if you still hate it, you can count down to your one year anniversary and then quit. Also, if you work for one of the big IBanks, it will look really good on your resume for whatever else you want to do if you work there for a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't I need to work out my entire two year contract first. I thought about waiting until I could keep my bonus check, but I think it would be the same effect if I quit halfway through my contract as opposed to 1/4 way through. Or do you disagree.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Have a plan for life after poker. I'm only playing for a living for a year. Hopefully, in fall 06, I'll be going to get a doctorate in Econ. You graduated college and it seems like your smart enough to have a lot of possibilities, so even if you decide to play poker for a living, there might be a time when either the Poker Golden Age stops or you decide you want to do something else. So even while playing poker or beforehand, look into other options. Start trying to contact people in Game Development. It seems most jobs in a lot of industries are through connections. So, start making connections.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to open my own business, maybe an internet gaming cafe. If I'm successful enough at poker I'll have saved up enough money to do that after a few years. I don't see myself doing this for life, but I think it might be an ok start. I could also apply for new jobs while playing poker, something I can;t do while in the investment bank.

Right now I'm not really saving alot of money because of NYC living expenses. Bonuses are small for first years even if you make the bank a gajillion dollars.

[MicroBob]

Didn't read the whole thing but got the general gist.


First, lots of people don't like their jobs. You already know this of course.

But I was sorta like you in that I didn't want to work in a career that sucked away my soul.
I did what I wanted and loved even though I made extremely little money doing it (working in radio).
I have no regrets about spending 12 years making almost nothing doing something that I loved.

Just something to consider.



Also - it sounds like you are suffering from some general anxiety and depression.
Obviously partly brought on by your lack of inspiration in your employment...but possibly not entirely related to that.

It's not uncommon to have that kind of confusion and feel pressure about 'what direction should I go' at 22 and just out of college (think Dustin Hoffman in 'The Graduate').
I had many of the same anxieties and depressions at that time in my life.

Lots of pressure it seems.

Not sure if that helps or not...but I'm pretty sure you're not alone in being pretty gosh-darned confused at this time in your life.

Not trying to be condescending or anything.
Just saying that I've sorta 'been there'.
not that everything in my life is picture-perfect at 35 y.o.
But I know that between 22-24 was a particuarly confusing time in my life as I was still trying to find myself.


Couple other things:

1. I suspect that you could probably get your gig back if you wanted/needed to and left on good terms.
Nothing in life has to be permanent. If you go the poker-route and it doesn't work out or collapses at some point then consider your options. Obviously your options would be to go right back to where you were (or some place silimiar).
I am not familiar with this stuff so maybe it would be far more difficult to get back into it than I realize.


[ QUOTE ]
I spend all day everyday thinking about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not thrilled with this mind-set.
Maybe I'm taking just one sentence WAY out of context...but there are so many freaking other things in life than just poker.

read the article in this month's 2+2 mag by the guy who was responding to Dr. Al's article.
He lets poker be TOO MUCH a part of his life.


whether or not poker is full-time or part-time you should strive to enjoy life in as many non-poker ways as possible.


In that guy's article...I think he is his own worst enemy. He lets poker get the better of him and lets it dominate his life.
It's extremely easy to stay healthy (go to the gym...join a soccer or basketball league or something) and have a girlfriend while playing online-poker for a living.
but you have to make sure that poker is not your sole/only priority in life.

so just be careful of that whole 'I think about poker all-day' type mid-set (not just directed at you....just something I see a lot around here and I think it's unhealthy).


good luck with your decision.
Hope this gave you some things to think about.

[raisins]

Don't think that you have to quit in order to look for another job. Even if your current employer would fire you if someone called for a reference, you can still job hunt. Simply tell any prospective employers that you do not want them contacting your current employer. They will understand. Perhaps your resume will not be as well received as if they were welcome to contact them but it will probably still be as competitive as if you were unemployed and looking for a job after working for a few months after graduation.

regards,

raisins

[lehighguy]

I get really into things, especially games. I don't think it's just poker. I could say the same thing about a videogames or a sport. The thing is, I could do certain things all day. I like to get really good at them, and I love every minute of it. Getting paid to play poker is kinduv like getting paid to play chess.

As far as doing it all day, I don't understand it. I've read alot that people that play poker don't go to the gym or have a lot of friends. This seems entirely counter-intuitive. Right now I'm out of shape and not very social BECAUSE I work. I don't have the time or energy to do anything else. I don't like my co-workers.

If I was playing poker 30-40 hours a week, I'd be able to do all those things. I'd have the energy to start playing sports again or try to meet a girl. At the end of the day, its just money.

[Greg J]

You are obviously not happy with yr job. Don't waste your life doing something you hate. You are blessed with skills and intelligence. You really do have a lot going for you if you think about it.

[ QUOTE ]
I talked to my parents about this and the jist of what they said is the life sucks. My best years are behind me, work is suppose to be totally miserable, and it won't change. Just suck it up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was raised by my grandparents, and they tried to tell me the same thing. And I love them, but it was the worst advice I recieved from anyone about anything BY FAR. What is the point of living life if you can't be happy? Find something that makes you happy and do that. If it's poker, cool. Perhaps you can play poker while going to classes to learn game development. Whatever it is, you have too much going for you to be miserable. I don't know your parents, and don't take offence to this please, but you should not listen to them. They are wrong.

Financial security does not necessarily equal happiness.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Financial security does not necessarily equal happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]


That was exactly my mindset...and still is.

However, in poker I am actually obtaining a degree on financial security that I didn't have before (so I'm kind of backwards in this regard).


[ QUOTE ]

If I was playing poker 30-40 hours a week, I'd be able to do all those things. I'd have the energy to start playing sports again or try to meet a girl. At the end of the day, its just money.

[/ QUOTE ]


right. seems like you have the right idea in general.
just don't be like 'that guy' (in the article...or elsewhere) who is unable to hang on to his girl because he's ALWAYS playing poker. That's just silly.

My girl calls at the last minute and says "Hey...lets go out." and I'm able to even though I've only put in 1 or 2 hours of work that day...I can always put in the hours later.
In fact, it's this freedom to 'always get around to it later' that is my biggest struggle with this whole thing (related to this is the problem of responding WAY too much to 2+2 threads when I should be playing/working).


If you are pretty sure that you won't lock yourself away for 20 hours out of the day just playing, playing, playing and will have a better life overall (including girls, friends, exercising, etc) then I suggest going for it.


The whole pressure from the parents thing is tough though.

regardless of whether they are right or not they are still your parents and there is still pressure there.

I left my last 'job' at 32 and still was very careful in how I worked with the parents about it.
My Dad understands okay and my Mom is less and less worried since I've obviously been 'getting by' for the last 20 months almost doing nothing but poker.


I can't imagine my Mom being cool with this if I was doing this at 22....and it would probably be a little trickier for my Dad at that age too (although maybe not....have received reports that he has kind of bragged about his poker-playing son who played at the WSOP).


I really have no suggestions on how best to approach this with your parents.
I mean...if they're really wacky they could find out about you playing poker for a career and go so far as to 'intervene' and try to get you off to G.A., etc.
for those who don't understand the deal here it's a completely understandable reaction.
Gambling really HAS ruined many many lives...and it's quite the leap of faith for those who don't understand it to somehow truly believe that you really ARE in the minority of players that can do this profitably (or that there even IS such a thing as minority that can do this profitably).

[ginko]

If I was you I would quit this job and concentrate on doing what makes me happy. You could easily destroy poker given your description.

Life is about being *happy*. If your not happy then there is no point. You can do anything you want. Just believe in yourself and your abilities and don't give up.

I can't tell you what line of work to persue, hell I don't even know what I want to do(I'm 20, no college yet, living as a semi-pro poker player). But figure it out. Take some time off. Quit this job, do some volunteer and the poker thing, maybe go back to school, enjoy life.

I recently went into a deep depression because the way my life has turned out. But I've fought hard and come through with the support of my family, my gf, reading self help books(7habits), and taking vitamins+st johns wort. It's worked.


I wish you luck.

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I hate corporate America in general. I hate having a boss. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I own my own business and report to myself. I don't think a different kind of banking job is the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is your answer.

You have planned you life very well but find you are not happy. Now make a plan to find something where you can be happy. Stay a year and leave on good terms. Force yourself to save and pay down your debt.

Been where you are twice in my life. You are young and have time to go back to school and study graphics, start your own business or play poker for a while. Get a plan and work towards it, you will feel better.

[yanicehand]

i never quote it, but this post begs for it.


"what choice?"

on a serious note, you know which path you want- you just need to work up the courage to admit it. and that is actually much, much harder than it sounds. good luck.

[TimM]

Your story has a lot of similarities to mine (except that I am 17 years older).

My grades suffered in my later college years because I spent all my time studying and playing chess - online poker was 10-15 years away. But there was no hope of making a living playing chess for me back then, so I kept working. Now I could easily make a living teaching chess classes and private students, and running tournaments. But that's not quite the same as playing; I'm sure I would hate it.

A friend and I also had an idea to start a business - an internet gaming cafe. We are both into FPS games and he is also a chess teacher, so we were going to do this combined with space for chess classes and tournaments and stuff like that. Maybe I'd even teach poker. We both worked at the same crappy job and wanted out badly. This idea kind of got shelved when I quit last February to play poker, and he left six months later for a middle school teaching job.

I will tell you that when I quit the job, it was like a huge weight lifted off of me. I absolutely hated the job and the manager I was working under. I even had the insomnia you have now. I almost want to advise you to give notice on Monday, but it's not so simple.

The main thing is the uncertain future of online poker. If things were going to stay like they are today forever, I'd say there is no reason for you to spend another day at that job. I suppose this is a risk anyone takes when they start any kind of business. And playing poker for a living is much more like a business than a job, of course.

You would be risking more than I did in quitting the job too. At my age at least I have some work experience I can use if I ever need to get a job again, and the career path you are on now is more valuable than the one I left. That said, you also have the advantage of being fairly young, so starting over is easier.

One thing, if you do go for it with poker, do not settle for a mediocre income. You need to make a lot of extra money to compensate for the risks you are taking. And whichever path you take, don't underestimate how much money you will need when you get older. You'll probably want a house, wife, kids, and you'll want to give them every advantage you can. Save up as much money as you can so that you don't have to be a slave to the loan payments most people in this country get saddled with in this process.

[ACPlayer]

When I was in high school my dad once told me to pick a direction that I enjoyed for my career rather than one that either my family (my mom was pushing for a medical career) or society or money would want you to do. I chose to go into engineering.

Every day for the first many or so years of my career I used to be surprised that people paid me to do what I enjoyed doing. Building solutions and products that others would use. When I went off on my own was the first time I really felt some level of stress and/or involvement with the money factor. However, it was all very satisfying and good.

Then I was burnt out, sold out, played poker for about four years and saw my health start to slide (too much sitting, bad food etc). I then decided to travel and ended up working (at the moment) as a PADI instructor. I still play online (which I dont care for much) occaisonally but am physically and mentally fitter and happier that for the last 10 years or so.

We have it beaten into our heads that we must have good jobs and good careers and marriages and homes and cars. Ultimately, you only have the moment.

Playing Poker for career is not for me, anymore. Not because I dont make money at it (I do), not because I dont like playing (I do) but because I cannot be satisfied by an activity designed to just make money. There must be more to what I do then taking money from strangers. Teaching Scuba is satisfying as it makes others happy, gives them something new to look forward to in their lives. Working as an engineer was satisfying as frequently it made the work of others better and easier.

When I return to the States I would look for a teaching job (probably in a comm college somewhere) continue to teach diving as long as I can, and continue to play cards (on the side).

As an aside, I am surprised by how many people on this board are obsessed by poker -- as it it is all consuming in their minds. I suggest, that a close examiniation of this from a psychological perspective is important. Playing cards (and specially online computer cards) is, to me, for some a form of escapism (I guess for someone living in Vietnam spending days on a boat and underwater that statement is ironic). Life should be balanced.

Hope this helps.

[ctv1116]

Wow, this thread is really depressing. I will now go back into my orange Princeton bubble and hope I will never have to leave it for the real world.

[MicroBob]

it doesn't have to be THAT depressing.

many options and possibilities in life.

it just happens that that is an emotionally tough time in life for some people...particularly when entering an office-job that they find unfulfilling and unejoyable.

But it doesn't have to be the end of the world.
And obviously there are obviously MANY people out there for whom it is MUCH worse who would do anything to have the troubles you or he or I are having.


My GF is a nurse at a hospital. She told me about two patients she had today.

One was an 18-year-old sorority girl who had some sort of stomach-ailment and was told she would have to stay an extra night.
Girl was EXTREMELY distressed to the point of bawling (as if somebody had died or something).
The reason?? She was no longer going to be able to attend some college dance.


Meanwhile, GF's other patient was a 20-year-old Mom who just found out she has AIDS. They haven't gotten the results back yet to find out if her 3-month-old son is also infected.


Stress and pressure and life problems are all relative.


Wouldn't be too hard to find a few million Americans who would say, "Oh boo-hoo-hoo....you make good money at one job but can't decide if you should try to make more money at a 'job' you think you might be happier at."


not trying to belittle lehigh's situation.
It's just the perspective I usually take with regard to almost all of my so-called 'problems' in life.


Every day I have a 150BB down-swing I have my GF there to who I know has spent her day spent cleaning up blood and vomit, etc etc from people who have REAL problems (sometimes including being in their very last days of living).

"I lost $1k today" doesn't quite compare to the guy who had a leg amputated today.

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
astly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it. I hate losing specifically because it makes me believe I couldn't go pro. If I had made $100,000 this year and lost $5k I wouldn't care. Specific bad beat hands don't bother me. It's when I think I can't do it that it bothers me, because I want to do it so bad. I study, I read, I'm trying so hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, its pretty obvious to me. If poker makes you happy DO IT. I am still in college myself and concern myself too much sometimes with FORCING myself out to parties and my friends house to just get drunk when its NOT what makes me happy. If poker makes you happy who gives a sh*t what anyone else thinks.... and it seems clearly evident it does. Peopels interests change. If some day down the line you got sick of poker, then so be it, stop playing. you sound like me... ive had PLENTY of interests that i spend ALOT of time in because THAT's what makes me happy at the time. Video games, poker, partying, drinking, smoking weed, picking up chicks, basketball, etc... ive spent massive amounts of times in all of this and just because someone else or society may tell you that one is more socially acceptable or "cool" than another means jack sh*t... do what ever YOU want to. If I spent 10 hours a day partying and picking up chicks certain people would think im cool.. but if i spent that same 10 hours playing a video game i'd be considered a dork, bottom line is.. who gives a sh*t.. all that matters is what makes you happy.

[ QUOTE ]
whether or not poker is full-time or part-time you should strive to enjoy life in as many non-poker ways as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Says who? Once again people seem to have this notion that theres a certain way everyone should be living their lives... just because you find value in doing a plethora of other activities, does that mean theres something wrong for him if he finds his enjoyment from poker? I'll tell you right now, if me sitting in my room staring at the walls made me extremely happy i'd do it every day and die happier than 99% of other people who lived their lives.

[ QUOTE ]
I get really into things, especially games. I don't think it's just poker. I could say the same thing about a videogames or a sport. The thing is, I could do certain things all day. I like to get really good at them, and I love every minute of it. Getting paid to play poker is kinduv like getting paid to play chess.

As far as doing it all day, I don't understand it. I've read alot that people that play poker don't go to the gym or have a lot of friends. This seems entirely counter-intuitive. Right now I'm out of shape and not very social BECAUSE I work. I don't have the time or energy to do anything else. I don't like my co-workers.

If I was playing poker 30-40 hours a week, I'd be able to do all those things. I'd have the energy to start playing sports again or try to meet a girl. At the end of the day, its just money.


[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to already know what you want, but theres something stopping you from going after it. I know what it is. It's the whole idea of playing professional poker and not having a job that's been ingrained into the back of your head as being socially unacceptable, but you should really ask yourself what would you truly enjoy doing with your life because it's entirely up to you. You seem intelligent enough to know the consequences of sitting in your room 20 hours a day and playing so I feel you'd have the right mindset for what you want to do to make you happy.. nobody else knows but you.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Says who? Once again people seem to have this notion that theres a certain way everyone should be living their lives... just because you find value in doing a plethora of other activities, does that mean theres something wrong for him if he finds his enjoyment from poker? I'll tell you right now, if me sitting in my room staring at the walls made me extremely happy i'd do it every day and die happier than 99% of other people who lived their lives.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't have any notion that people should live their lives in any particular way.
I do have a notion on some ways that one should probably not be living their lives I guess.
Sitting in one's room and NEVER going out is just plain unhealthy.
That's pretty much all I was trying to say.


It's a fine-line between really 'enjoying' something and being flat-out addicted to it I guess.
And those who simply are unable to break-away sometimes get VERY lost and have specifically recommended to people to NOT play online-poker for a living because they are so miserable...mostly because they feel the online-poker has dominated their lives so much.

It is my assertion that these people could have avoided situations of being semi-miserable in their lives if they were a bit more well-rounded.

To my mind, this includes exercising at least a little bit (walking....actually going outside every once in awhile) and having friends.
I believe there are some online-poker players who are so addicted to it that they have few, if any, friends nor do they do freaking ANYTHING.


I think it's obvious that a situation like this is to be avoided.


I'm not saying to go drinking all the time and bang a million girls.
I'm just saying to be careful not to let online-poker be the only aspect of your life that is worthwhile.

When I read something like 'think about poker all day, every day' then I grow a little concerned that this person may fall at least a little bit into that category.
Lehigh's reply about this seemed like he had his on straight though.



I fully agree with your first part that if you enjoy doing something you should probably do it (within reason I suppose....if you enjoy killing people, for example, then please consider other options).

[mcb]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always been living for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

simple solution -- live for the moment

[Toms]

Bob I have a lot of respect for your posts and your poker game. But dustin hoffman and the graduate? this kid is only 22 or so he's probably scratching his head, and since I am about twenty years older than you and this movie is from my generation I think you have too much free time if you are going this deep on the movie shelf. Play more post more and cut back on the movies

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I LOVE POKER. I spend all day everyday thinking about poker. I can sit for 6 hour sessions and love every minute of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is mindboggling to me and i really dont believe it. if its true tho that you love poker and have no problem putting in at least 100 hours a month and could do this for years upon years then its a no brainer-go pro.

[AdamBragar]

Even if your bonus is dependent on working for 2 years, you'll be able to put on your resume that you worked at this place for a year and also for letters of recommendation, if you work there for a year and quit, people are more apt to write you a letter of recommendation.

Your are 22 yr old, just a babe, I’m 51 yrs. (OLD)

Here is my advice to you,

FOLLOW your dreams, but follow your dreams with your eyes wide open. Know exactly what your getting yourself into. You need to read books about being a professional gambler, read the biographies of poker pros so you get a realistic feel for what the life is really like. Realize that it is a JOB, and when you’re a pro it is a business.

When I was you’re age I was an extremely seriours rock musican. My girl friend got pregnant we got married nine yrs later divorced. I’ve spent the past 30rs wondering WHAT IF ??.

If your going to do this one huge rule, NO, I REPEAT NO ,NO GIRL FRIENDS. JUST BUTTY CALLS. Women are dream killers, do not have a girl friend in your life tell you have achieved your dream. This is a must!!!!!

There will be lots of pain along the way. No pain No gain. You must be willing to go though the pain and sacrifices. Porker is a life of extreme highs & extreme lows. Know what your in for, again eyes wide open. This is not a glamorous life for most, it’s grinding out a living. Very few poker pros ever make it on TV. Yet there are thousands that make a good living playing the game. 100k to 200k per year , I personally know some who do.

It sounds like you play mostly on line, to truly be a pro I feel you must change to cash games. I would advise you move to L. A. . L.A. is one of the poker capitals of the world. There is as much action here as there is in Vagas with lots of really bad players. Stay out of Vagas till your really good, if you don’t the sharks will eat you up.

Get a part time job live cheap play poker, you may consider going to dealer school and being a poker dealer for a couple of years. Dealers make good money . Many of the most successful pro’s are former dealers. That’s where they learn to really read the other players and become an expert on putting people on there hands.

I would advise you share this letter with you father, not your mom. He may hate me for this advise or he may agree. But in the end it is YOUR decision and only YOUR decision.

John Bonetti was 54 yr old when he started to play poker and has gone on to be known as one of the all time greats. I myself am working on becoming a pro. And I am working my ass off trying. It’s hard hard work but I do love it. Doug “ the ice man “ Lohr

[ElSapo]

There's a lot of good and bad advice in this thread, and a lot of interesting perspectives from people who probably know much more than I do and have a greater breadth of experience. That said, I'll give you my advice and maybe you can take something from it.

People talk about change like it's a permanent thing — poker or banking or teaching or dating a ton of girls or going out or staying in or unemployment or over employment. A lot of people at least post and write advice as if the change you make will be the last, and permanent one. I disagree with this assesment.

There's nothing wrong with making a change, trying something new, deciding it doesn't work and then changing again. And. Again. The idea that you will one day arrive at the "perfect permanent state," where you find a state of perpetual satisfaction, seems counterintuitive to me. One day what you want may change, and when it does you can make that change again. And. Again.

So far, no one has proven to me otherwise that you get anything but one shot in this life. Spending it not trying to follow what you want is a crime, I would think, especially give that you seem intelligent and have resources and support.

I left my job one month ago — I didn't hate it, I simply didn't love it. I left with about $10,000 in the bank and a general idea that I could play poker for some extra cash. I didn't intend to turn pro, and I still don't.

I set a timeframe: between six months and a year. I opted to work on two specific projects, a photo documentary and some fiction writing. I told myself that I would accomplish these things, and in six months I would re-evaluate. I would see where I was, what I wanted, and I would look to change again.

In some ways, you could call this stupid. $10,000 is not a lot of money. A bare minimum monthly nut for me is about $1,500, so the six-months is there. I was/am lucky, in that if I want I can probably return to my old job. I have no idea what will happen at the end of six months. I'm willing to make a change, and another.

If you decide to turn pro, it is not the end of your choices. You may find in time you dislike it. You may love it. You may want to go back to part time. But the most important thing, I think, is to understand that it doesn't have to be permanent — you can change again. And. Again.

Change is scary -- I hate change, honestly. But I got to a point where it made more sense to make the change I was scared of, leaving a solid and good job I didn't hate but didn't love. You seem to be well past that point.

What are you afraid of? There's worse things in life than gaps on your resume. Sometimes the worse things are the non-gaps.

Just my take.

[lehighguy]

I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[JohnnyHumongous]

Lehighguy,

Do you remember the thread about 6 or 8 months ago where I asked whether I should take the strategy consulting gig I got offered or play poker full-time? You were in that thread a bunch... it's ironic because it seems you're facing a very similar situation and similar pros and cons. Since then my skill and my earn at poker have gone up substantially, such that if I were to play full-time I could make a tremendous amount of money, a lot more than I had said in that thread.

And you know what? I STILL go to my consulting job day in and day out. My job is typically 50-60 hours per week, so it's similar to yours, and unlike trading the hours are unpredictable so I never know whether I'll have to stay until 11 pm or come in on the weekends. But I look at it this way: if I were to play full-time I could probably get the standard 30 hours per week in. Now I feel I can get 15 hours per week after my day job responsibilities are through. So it's true that I could make more per year playing poker rather than consulting. But the thing is, poker is not guaranteed to be as profitable in the future, and if I stay on the career path numerous doors will be open to me throughout my life. Those doors would not be open if I played poker rather than got this crucial post-college experience.

There are a ton of other benefits to having a job, like health coverage and other benefits, social network and interpersonal relationships, "nonpecuniary benefits" like client and recruiting dinners, company sponsored social events etc. I love the "legitimacy" of my job, in that it's a real first-class job where people dress well, get paid well and they do work that is profoundly meaningful and has a real impact on the economy.

If I were in your shoes (and I almost was- I did I-Banking internships but realized I would have hated that kind of work), I would finish out the year, and next spring/summer start looking around for other gigs so you can have another job lined up that you can jump into as soon as you finish your year in trading. My job is sooooooo much better than I-Banking would have been, and I am so much better suited for it personality-wise and skill-wise. I'm sure you can find a career that you feel the same way about. Have you thought about advertising or marketing? Hedge funds? Industry? There are countless career paths to take.

Anyways, I hope this jumble of thoughts came through OK. Feel free to PM me or respond here if there's anything else you want to talk about.

Best of luck.

[utmt40]

Seriously man I was in a similar job a few months back and I only worked 35 hrs a week there. I made way more money there than what I am now but what is funny is that I am a lot happier at my new job. It is within the same company so it worked out as a transfer. I now work 45-50 hrs a week and I love my job. See if there is something else you might be interested in within the company you work for instead of quitting. If not I would ride out my 2 yrs and look for something else.

[iceman5]

Im going to assume that you want honesty or you wouldnt have taken so much time to post your question, so here goes.

I agree with the guy who said you are immature. You want to play games and get drunk. You dont want to join the real world. Joining the real world doesnt have to mean that you are miserable, but almost everyone dislikes their job. Unless you are a professional athlete, you are probably not going to love your job.

The part where you said you have worked hard your whole life really got me. You are 22 and are just out of college. Trust me, you have no idea what hard work is. You were coughing up blood from too many hours behind your banking job desk? Give me a break dude.

Go do some roofing work for 60 hours a week where its 120 degrees on top of the roof and youre busting your ass climbing up and donw a ladder carrying shingles and then lets see how much blood you cough up.

I used to have a job I hated. I was in sales and made pretty good money for a 19-20 yeard old, but I hated it. I wanted to become a police officer so I joined the Army. I did my 4 years and then got out and Ive been a cop for 15 years now and I still love it.

I also play poker part time and make more money playing poker than I do at work. I could quit and play poker full time and would probably make $150K without moving up any higher stakes than Im playing now, but I prefer to work a real job and play on the side for a variety of reasons.

Your job very well could be making you sick if the stress of hating your job is bothering you that much, but its not from "hard work". If you are stressed out that badly and feeling physically ill , then you really do need to do something else because your body will age very quickly....But dont think that playing poker for a living is an easy living. There are many many reasons why its a tough life. Enough reasons that I dont quit to play full time.

[Klepton]

i've been a pro player for 4 months, i already want out.

keep the investment banker job.

and as for just wanting to hang out with friends and not knowing how to spend your money, here's an idea:

go to a bar and hang out with your friends. at the start of the night pull out your credit card and say "all drinks on me tonight, lets have some fun."

[Danenania]

Perhaps this demonstrates MY immaturity but I can't imagine "riding out" 2 years or even 1 year of my life doing something that I hate. Difficult is something else. Succeeding at a difficult task can be strengthening and rewarding but it doesn't sound as if the OP is gaining anything at all from his current situation. Ride it out? Man I would rather be broke and live in my parents' basement than have to turn myself into a zombie just to endure my own life. OP, If I were you I'd quit and start looking at other more fulfilling options immediately. Hell if you just want to play video games and chill with friends then do that until something new occurs to you. You can easily make enough playing poker to support yourself doing that for as long as you wish. It's not as if there's a dire shortage of investment bankers in the world. Maybe this attitude is the reason I will never be a CEO or senator but you also won't ever see me stuck with a job that I hate. Seems like a fair enough trade to me.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of retiring at 35 is really appealing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, I don't even want money.I wouldn't know what to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[JohnnyHumongous]

Just a little nitpick but he's not an investment banker, he's an S&T (sales & trading) analyst. Fairly big difference.

[lehighguy]

They are gonna put me in research, which has the most hours of S+T. But anyway as to your oringinal post.

I can't really play poker while working. The difference between 50-60 and 60-80 is big, but much more importantly I'm completely drained by the end of it. I tried playing the first two weeks, and I played real bad because I didn't have the energy. I've done things for 80 hours a week before when I enjoyed them, and it didn't feel hard at all. Somehow I think even if my hours were reduced I still might want to quit because I hate the work.

As for interpersonal relationships, that is a real problem for me right now. I'm not an investment banker. Investment banking is more then a job, its like a whole damn 24/7 personality. And it just isn't me. I never really got along with the other finance majors at school either. I can't see being friends with these people. This has been really tough for me.

[lehighguy]

I know a lot of IB guys worth a few million by 35 that keep working till they are 60. They can have 100 million dollars and they still want more. How many porches can one guy own.

If I had 2 or 3 million right now I would invest it and live modestly off the dividends so I would never have to work again ever.

[lehighguy]

Could you go into what has happened as a pro a little.

[Klepton]

no repsonsibilities are fun, but when you actually have to play at least 2000 hands a day, it'll start to get at you.

also you said in 2 years you could be making 100k easy. making 100k when you are 24 is pretty damn good.

i went pro because there was nothing better. if someone offered me a investment banker job paying 55 the first 2 years and then maybe 100k after that, i'd take it instantly and go back to playing poker once a week.

[lozen]

Move to Canada and play poker /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Eder]

Man....I'm 49 years old...one thing I know is life goes by fast. I love my work...can't imagine a kid getting stuck into something they hate. Poker might not work out but find something to do that you love.... even if it's making the popcorn at the movies. Money seriously is not as important as happiness...just my 2 bits

[rtrombone]

[ QUOTE ]
I talked to my parents about this and the gist of what they said is that life sucks. My best years are behind me, work is supposed to be totally miserable, and it won't change. Just suck it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Responses like this are why parents are sometimes the worst place to turn to with questions like yours. The very fact that they have had kids means that their perspective is skewed. More on this below.

You have an unusual amount of perspective for someone so young. This is good. As you are no doubt aware, many people your age are like so many lemmings in their dash along career paths long since predetermined. Everyone is in a hurry to become a doctor, lawyer, banker, management consultant, etc. etc. Prestige whores abound. They all believe that at the end of the indian trail lies infinite wealth, prestige and 77 virgins.

A lot of posts in this thread offer bad advice. Unless someone has worked in your industry, how can they possibly know whether it's a superior alternative to playing poker full-time? Similarly, older people are naturally going to be more inclined to say that the mature thing to do is keep your job. After all, positions like yours are hard to come by and many would kill--or at least suck a lot of dick--to be in your shoes.

I don't know what you should do. All I can do is give you some things to think about. Sometimes, it's not answers one is seeking, but questions. Figuring out the answers to these questions may help clear things up a little.

Do you remember this scene from Office Space?

PETER: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you would do if we had a million dollars and didn't have to work. And invariably, whatever we would say, that was supposed to be our careers. If you wanted to build cars, then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic....

MICHAEL: No, you're working at Initech because that question is [censored] to begin with. If that quiz worked, there would be no janitors, because no one would
clean [censored] up if they had a million dollars.

This exchange is supposed to be humorous but we should all heed Peter's words. You know the saying: "Find a job you like and you won't have to work a day in your life."

I believe this should be everyone's goal. When you're a little kid adults ask you, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" Somewhere along the way, people stop asking this question. We stop asking it of ourselves. Slowly, we find ourselves being pushed along one of several career paths society deems desirable because of their prestige, stability or average starting salaries. What nobody tells us is that these jobs [censored] suck.

By and large, there are two reasons someone keeps a job he hates: (1) Obligations such as young children or $200K in student loans; or (2) A lack of balls.

Everything changes when you have kids. Typically, you no longer define yourself by your career, but as a parent instead. You're willing to work from nine to five every day if it means your kids' futures are secure. You can tolerate the [censored] you go through at work if it means you can tuck your kids in at night, go to their games on weekends, see them grow up. You look forward to spoiling your grandchildren.

If you graduate under a mountain of debt you're pretty much forced to take the highest-paying job you can find. Only after you pay it down for a few years can you consider trying to become a diplomat as you've always dreamed.

What about everyone else? They hate their jobs but they don't know what else to do. Most people claim that money is their ultimate goal (whether this is true or not is a whole 'nother issue; we are products, after all, of a capitalist society). Well, if everyone wants to be rich there should be a hell of a lot more entrepreneurs. The fact of the matter is that most people are risk averse and/or lazy. They don't want to put in the work and are frightened by the prospect of bankruptcy. Most successful businessmen fail multiple times before building their fortunes.

Even if money isn't the goal, many are hesitant to pursue their dreams because they're afraid of what people will think. "Dude, you want to leave your job as an accountant at Deloitte to become a chef?!" "Yeah, he used to do M&A at Deutsche Bank but left to teach kindergarten. Probably couldn't hack it." "Tell me, son, how can you possibly be thinking about quitting? You're in line to become VP of Marketing!!"

What is it that you want out of life? Take your time in deciding. You'll probably end up changing your mind more than once. This is fine, and normal; at least you'll be thinking, and not marching mindlessly toward the cliff of prestige.

A lot of people like poker, myself included. But few like being poker players. Is it about more than the money? When people hear your name, do you want them to think, "Isn't he that poker guy?" Do you hope to appear at final tables on TV and play in the big game at the Bellagio with the likes of Daniel Negreanu? I know very few people who truly love being poker players. The ones who do tend to be much more successful than the ones who don't. They can play for hours on end in an effort to hone their games. They love testing themselves against world-class opponents. They get a thrill out of achieving notoriety in the poker community. They live to be recognized for their skills.

Most people play poker because they can make far more playing than they can doing anything else. There comes a point, though, when you have enough capital to become an entrepreneur. Keep enough of a bankroll to operate and go for a real score. But do they have the balls?

How badly do you want work in the game industry? Are you willing to go back to school and learn how to program? What other avenues can you take to break in? Is there anyone you can talk to to get a sense of what it's like?

Some logistical tips:

You can apply for other jobs on the down low. Many employers don't ask for references. If they do, you're the one who provides them, so if you can't find anyone you trust at work you just cross that employer off your list.

I would keep your job for however long the industry minimum is. How soon does attrition begin? Surely many people burn out and quit. If everyone tends to stay for at least two years, you may be assed out.

You don't necessarily need a shitload of your own money to start a business. Plenty of people borrow or find investors. All you need is a good business plan and a little charm. (Rich relatives don't hurt, of course.)

Good luck.

[wopples]

you definetly should grind out your job to make sure they dont take your 10,000 bonus back. I think poker is very dark road if you don't start with a big enough bankroll to play in games that willl give you big enough salary to live comfortabley. i would continue to play semi pro on loose weekend games. and focus on job during week. build your bankroll to 500,000 in five years or ten years. you can play poker your whole life. with your analytical skills you can have a plan where you get good ev and with a bigger bankroll the profit will be worth it. you dont want to quit your job and play your 20,000. YOU WILL GET BURNT OUT ON POKER AT SOME POINT I GUARENTEE IT. SPEAKING AS SOMEONE WHO LOVES THE GAME JUST AS MUCH AS YOU. you worked to hard in college and school to sell out for poker. you can do poker in 10 years when you have built up a roll to make it worth your time. the current situation isnt enough money for a person with your skills and potential in life. please remember that kid in you who would not settle for anything but an A. Your A right now is choosing a sound career with options to make more like 250,000 a year plus. this is what you deserve and should shoot for. with dicipline, faith and god all things are possible. wopples Brooks Blake /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[wopples]

WITH NO MONEY NO ONE IS HAPPY. AND I MEAN 0. CAUSE THEN YOUR A BUMB. IT IS A CRUEL WORLD. IT YOU HAVE ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOUR NEEDS AMD WANTS. BEING CONTENT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE IS IMPORTANT BUT IT IS NORMAL TO WANT TO HAVE FREEDOM IN YOUR CHOICES. LETS FACE IT ON EARTH.... THE MORE MONEY YOU HAVE THE MORE FREE YOU ARE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT ASSUMING YOUR NOT IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING IT. THIS PROCESS IS CALLED WORK. IN LIFE EITHER MONEY WORKS FOR YOU OR YOU WORK FOR MONEY. SO ONCE YOU HAVE MANAGE IT TO WORK FOR YOU. A RICH IDIOT HAS MORE OPPURTUNITY IN THIS COUNTRY THAN A REALLY INTELLIGENT PERSON WITH AVERAGE INCOME. IF YOU HAVE 10 MILLION IN THE BANK EVERYONE IN THE BANK GETS UP AND GOES TO WORK TO EARN YOUR INTEREST ON THE MONEY. THE WHOLE SYSTEM WORKS FOR YOU. SO LIKE I SAID IN LIFE YOU CAN WORK FOR MONEY OR IT CAN WORK FOR YOU.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
You still do this? Then this is your problem because the energy you put into this is taken away from real life.

You sound like a man with talents and dreams (though they are vague at the moment). Throw that crap out the window and develop more interest in life again then all your decisions will be easier.

[DpR]

Leghigh

I feel the need to post here since most of the advice you are getting seems to be to of course go pro. I think that is a bad idea and it is not close.

First let me say that you are not alone. Many of your co-workers feel exactly the same, it is pretty much par for the course for analyst level positions in IBs. Both my wife and I have been through what you are going through (we are 30 now) and it is long forgotten. After you 'pay your dues' so to speak there are many alternative opportunities that will open up to you. You do not necessarily have to stay there forever. That same million dollars a year will be available in other opportunities with far less work hours and stress. Think nice lunches, smoozing in Hawaii etc. The only thing is, you have to have paid your dues to ever get these opportunities. My wife and I go on a vacation EVERY MONTH and retirement at 35 is certainly a possibility if desired. These things are possible for smart people with a good work ethic. If you quit now, forget about it. Poker will never provide such an opportunity. Even if you made $2M playing poker, you could not live off that for the rest of your life.

Even looking at your goal to start you own business it is better to stay where you are for a while. You will meet a lot of people and develop your rolodex such that starting your business will be a lot easier.

This is a crossroad in your life and IMO it would be a horrible mistake to give up your opportunity to be a poker pro (which is so overglorified on these boards). You have an opportunity in business that most people never get, it would be a shame to let it go.

All that said, your health concerns need to be taken care of. You need to get sleep and reduce stress. It is worth seeing a doctor to address these issues. You have to find a way to deal with these problems. If things get realy bad (perhaps they already are), perhaps you taek medical leave from work for a coupel weeks to rejuvinate. Talk to a doc, talk to HR at your company. There may be more flexibility than you imagine. Your health is #1. Try to get that is check while keeping your opportunities open. If you determine that is impossible, then consider other options.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
You still do this? Then this is your problem because the energy you put into this is taken away from real life.

You sound like a man with talents and dreams (though they are vague at the moment). Throw that crap out the window and develop more interest in life again then all your decisions will be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that. It sounds like games are one of the few things he's found that he undeniably enjoys and you want him to quit?

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
You still do this? Then this is your problem because the energy you put into this is taken away from real life.

You sound like a man with talents and dreams (though they are vague at the moment). Throw that crap out the window and develop more interest in life again then all your decisions will be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that. It sounds like games are one of the few things he's found that he undeniably enjoys and you want him to quit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah seriously. Let him have his games. So what if they take time away from "real life"? What is real life worth if there's nothing you enjoy, nothing you look forward to? As long as it doesn't take over the rest of your life, play the video games. Spend your time doing what you want to do, not what society or anyone else thinks you should be doing. As long as you're not welching off the rest of society you should feel free to play your games.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
You still do this? Then this is your problem because the energy you put into this is taken away from real life.

You sound like a man with talents and dreams (though they are vague at the moment). Throw that crap out the window and develop more interest in life again then all your decisions will be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that. It sounds like games are one of the few things he's found that he undeniably enjoys and you want him to quit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah seriously. Let him have his games. So what if they take time away from "real life"? What is real life worth if there's nothing you enjoy, nothing you look forward to? As long as it doesn't take over the rest of your life, play the video games. Spend your time doing what you want to do, not what society or anyone else thinks you should be doing. As long as you're not welching off the rest of society you should feel free to play your games.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he keeps it at a healthy level there is nothing wrong with it. But 4 hours each day - that sounds like an escape to me, and I would think that would suck out a bunch of energy that could be put into more "life affirming" activities that have future benefits. It is when you are drained and exhausted that things become dull. I can sometimes feel like that when I have put an excessive amount of hours into poker for several days in a row.

Just a thought though. This may be completely off.

[JohnnyHumongous]

Stick it out 1 calendar year then jump, and be glad that you'll leave with a whole lot more experience and wisdom than you would have had otherwise. You'll also appreciate wherever you end up all the more.

[DcifrThs]

Very good post.

Im about to enter the world you hate. I'll be working for a bank next year doing mortgage trading / research or structuring/origination of commercial MBS. but this is my choice. i love analysis and i can't wait to get started.

you, on the other hand, were almost forced into this world. things that say you should quit right now:

1) its taking your SOUL. jesus, ive heard some complaints about banks but damn, thats gotta be the worst one + insomnia is horrible.

2) well, nothing could come close to 1 so lets just say 1 is about 5 reasons.

but if you quit, you're giving up your ability to come back. thats true. unless you quit to start your own firm which it sounds like you're not.

cons:

1) ability to come back

2) $$, security, predictable income, benefits.

so it looks like you're in a pikle...but is there ANYTHING about the job that you like?

do you like trading?

selling?

client relations?

if so, moving from a big name NYC bank, to boutique (sp?) banks shouldn't be nearly as hard as moving TO the big name banks. you need to talk to people in the industry outside your firm. but to make this move you definately have to have a passion for something in the line of work.

you can move desks (im assuming you're selling equities since thats usually the "front office" as you said). equity sales can get old REAL fast as ive been told. it may be better to try to get to another desk. forex, derivatives, munis, MBS (shameless plug) are all interesting. in the latter field, there are a lot of young minds...and of those middle aged minds out there, a large portion of them were there at inception and have a lot to impart (in the field, not necessarily your shop)

OTHER ideas: if you really just HATE S&T in general then you need to get away from it. do you like selling at all? do you see where im going with this?

new job, new career, new industry, change of scenery---> get you to a job you love or at least like. take the aspects of the job you like. see to what industries you can apply those aspects. seek people to talk to in that industry. repeat till you find a place youd feel comfortable going if you quit your S&T job.

the above is about your JOB. now you need to think about your HEALTH.

sleep is crucial. do you run? excersize? eat well? you NEED to do these things b/c they will reduce blood pressure and help you sleep and help you have energy during the day. its a must.



good luck, PM if you want.

Barron

[ QUOTE ]
I've worked hard all my life. I worked very hard in school. I worked and went to school in high school. When I did my first internship I worked so hard I had to go to the doctor because I was coughing up blood, he said it was from overwork. Made me take time off. I don't think laziness is the factor here.

As I said, I've ALWAYS made the responsible decision. I always studied instead of partied, I was always polite instead of rude, I always did my fair share when I didn't have to. I'm just not sure what that has gotten me.

I never had any interest in this field. I never even applied for my first internship, my Aunt just called me one day and told me to go for an interview. I turned down having them pay part of my college if I went to work for them.

I can't look for another job while working there. If they call for a reference, I'll be fired the next day. It isn't worth thier time to train me if I'm gonna be out the door the next day. So if I'm gonna do anything else, I'm gonna have to quit. As for similair jobs, I just hate finance in general.

The other thing is, I don't like the people who work in finance. They are all very shallow. We have none of the same hobbies. I find it hard to be friends with them.

The other job I considered when I was young was politics. I worked for an NYC councilmen and on a congressional campaign. But working in politics is different from talking about politics or policy. Its mostly dirty and scummy. Driving around trying to "expose" the other guy. All sorts of other stuff. Unless your actually setting policy your mostly just trashing the other guy or churning out propoganda for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you like politics, that doesn't mean you have to work in politics. Why not work in public policy, a think tank, journalism, etc. You don't have to be right in the field of politics of course.

[Danenania]

A think tank sounds like a cool place to work. Would the building be shaped like a giant brain?

[lehighguy]

I'm in equity derivatives.

I just don't like IB in general. It's not a product/desk thing.

[Jgents]

Oh. Gosh. Get a blog. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Looks like to me you already made your decision and are just looking for reassurances. Go with whatever you decide and stick with it until your nose bleeds (no pun intended).

I'm 25. I'm smart. I'm lazy. I had a rough childhood. I've spent the last 10 years being a pothead, being content, and doing whatever made me "happy" to get over it. Now im behind in life a bit, and not living up to my potential. I have worked mostly odd jobs and sweezed out 2 years of junior college in the mit's of it.

But now i have a choice, Live up to my potential, or float threw life. Im sick of floating, so i quit pot. Im trying not to be as lazy. I'm going back to school. Now im on the "5 year plan" to get my [censored] together by 30. No more being just "happy", i gotta pay my dues. You are not like me. You have paid your dues so far. Obviously, your not the type to float, or just be content and "happy". But your young enough to do both. Have the 5 year plan, but make one that lets you be happy.

Some of us are not lucky enough/worked hard enough to have this option. I suggest taking advantage of it. Working a job you hate, turns you into someone you don't want to be. Not living up to your potental, turns you into someone you don't want to be. You should search for that ideal middle ground. You have always used your brain, and its in your character to always do so. Maybe you should listen to your heart too this time.

Then again, the older people in this forum have more wisdom, when you can see threw there moments of jadedness. I just wanted to throw in the mid 20's slacker prospective, because i haven't seen it posted yet. And thats the oppisite extreme of being a smart kid with potental, who isn't a college grad. and "successful Banker guy" or whatnot.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in equity derivatives.

I just don't like IB in general. It's not a product/desk thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

well then its time to move on if you're that unhappy.

i doubt you'll have a hard time finding a job that involves any analysis given where you come from. if you dont like that and want to do something totally different and random then it just takes research, developing contacts, and time.

good luck.

EDIT: notice i never say play poker for a living. id think thats the wrong way to go.

Barron

[MaxPower]

It is clear that you are in the wrong profession for you. There are other businesses other than Investment Banking, you know. In these other businesses you will most likely never make the kind of money you can in IB, but you might enjoy your work and your free time. You might meet people there that you like and who are similar to you. You might even find a boss who you like working for. There are also small companies that you can work for, which are very different from the Corporate America you hate. Ultimately, you could be an entrepenuer.

So I think you should just look for work in something else. If you really love video games, I'm sure you can get a job in that industry. You will probably have to start out in a lowly position, but you can work your way up. The excuse that you have no skill is dumb. Either take some classes to get some skills or get an entry level job. You don't need skills to get hired, you learn most of what you need to know on the job)

I don't think you have to worry about the reference thing. You are just out of college, nobody is expecting you to have amazing references. You don't have to use your current employer as a reference.

You are worrying way too much about this. If you are absolutely sure that you want out of your industry, get out. If I were hiring someone who was fresh out of college, I would not label them a quiter if they has worked 3 months at a job they hated. I would respect their choice. I would hire them right away if they were qualified. If any part of you thinks that you want to make Investment Banking your career then don't quit - give it a try for a few years.

There is no going back at this point. The life you knew is gone. The new world you are entering into can be very rewarding in its own way, but it will never be like the old one.

On the issue of hanging out with your friends. I certainly reccommend you do that as much as possible, but you should not base your career decisions on that. I have news for you, in 3-5 years all of your friends (and you) will be in serious relationships and will be getting married and they will have serious careers of their own. Once that happens, you will still see them and hang out occasionaly, but it will not be like it is now. You might even find that some of your friends take a different path and you no longer have much in common with them.

Good Luck.

[2ndGoat]

I was in a similar position a year ago. I ended up quitting my job, which would not have been quite as lucrative as yours (50k out of college, but would taken ~8 years to get to 100 unless I went into consulting), but also wasn't quite as terrible (40 hours weeks, just still hated the corporate atmosphere).

I ended up hopping off the "smart career decision" path and have just played poker for 9 months now. It has been fantastic.

The money has not been what I thought it would be. I figure to make 65k my first 12 months instead of the 200k I honestly projected when I left work. Most of this is due to the fact that I can't seem to make myself play more than 20 hours a week, on average. The rest is because I'm not quite as good at poker as I thought. 65k on my own is just slightly less compensation than the 50k+amazing benefits at my previous job.

Waking up whenever I want and not thinking about facing traffic has made me happier than I could imagine (and I imagined it would make me pretty damn happy). Being able to fly wherever, whenever, and do so on one-way tickets with no definite return plan is also really nice. Dealing with 15k downswings with no paycheck backing me up (I've had 2) has made me a little more frustrated than I imagined (and I imagined it wouldn't really frustrate me THAT much). And to be honest, it's pretty fun to answer the "what do you do?" question now- whether the questioner responds with envy or looks at me like I'm delusional. The 20 hour a week job is pretty nice too. I haven't necessarily spent the extra time on productive activities (often video games and such) but sometimes I have.

The real benefit? Getting away from the world where I always had the next step (that is, the next carrot) laid out before me has given me time to figure what I think I actually want to do. I didn't plan on that. Over these past 9 months I've determined I want to be a teacher. Eventually. I'll still likely take another year or two off of life because it's a pretty good time. The other great thing is I know I can support myself with poker, so even if teaching doesn't pay anything, I can help support myself with 2 months of poker in the summer (assuming I teach high school) and part time play during the year.

Part of this comes from seeing how close "the money" is. If I *did* force myself to work more hours, and take the game more seriously, I still think I could get to the 200k mark within a year or two- at 24/25. I also see my buddy, the phenom, make 6 figures on a TV show, or close to it in a 48 hour span at a cash game, at the age of 22. It's rather absurd- almost like a cheat code for life. I never thought money was a huge deal, but I've realized even more how little it really means to me now. Sure it would be nice to have "ftw" money, but I really would like to do something where I feel like I'm making a positive impact on the world, AND like what I do, and it seems more important than the cash.

Hope that has helped you some. While the decision is obviously one only you can make, it seems real obvious to get the hell off wall street if it's going to steal your soul. Also, I highly recommend "What Should I Do With My Life?" by Po Bronson. He interviewed a thousand or so people and put maybe 30 of their career stories into a book. Has lots of investment types in it.

2nd

[phish]

I think it's clear you need to get out of your current job. I think you should look for another job. Don't worry about references. Most employers ask if they can contact your current employer. Just say no and they won't contact until after they've made an offer and you've accepted.

I don't think you've proven yourself as a successful enough poker player yet, so I wouldn't plan to go 'pro'. Would be okay to quit and just play for a few months or so, but don't count on it yet as a lifetime employment.

But if your job is causing you physical problems, then there's no argument for staying there any longer. Forget the contract you've signed and the bonuses, etc. It ain't worth it.

FWIW - I've been through a few similar situations in my life and am considering another--quitting a boring computer programming job to work freelance and play a lot more poker. But to put your situation in terms this board can relate to: I think if you add up the eV of hanging around for your bonus + eV of putting in enough time to not look like a complete flake should you ever decide to step in these waters again + eV of seeing something through enough to know 100% for sure it's not for you (2 months in a job is almost never sufficient) = no-brainer. I think every job I've ever had has gone through a low point somewhere between 6 and 18 months, but after that it usually gets better.

Poker's calling me too. But I know giving up my (however boring) 6-figure job would just be stupid at this point. Having said that, don't waste your life if you KNOW IB is something you hate. But make sure you think things through and make damn sure you really feel that way before you throw away this opportunity. And don't confuse wanting to sleep in, set your own hours and play a game for a living with following a passion. Everyone wants the former, passion needs to be combined with hard work and commitment if you're ever going to accomplish something great. Nothing worth doing in life is ever easy. Think about where you want to go with poker. And if it's just so you can set your own hours, etc., think about where 5,10,20 years of that is going to leave you. I think that person winds up as shallow as the coworkers you can't stand.

[NorthernGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I love games. A conservative estimate of how much warcraft i played would be 4 hours a day everyday for 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this shows the lack of maturity and grip on reality. I'm amazed you finished a degree, playing games that much.

A couple months at a job isn't enough to determine anything. You hacked it through school, I think you should at least stick it out for a while at the job and not rush into any decision. If you want to get into gaming, then investigate what it would take... maybe back to school for a bit for programming.

Look around at other opportunities relating to Finance. I'm in that field also, and I know there's crappy jobs out there, but there are plenty of great ones out there. Are you wanting to stay in NYC? What about moving to a smaller city with lower cost of living?

You should at least have some thought towards the future, more than "get drunk and play games." Someday you may actually want to buy a house, car, cottage... get married, have kids... etc.

Well, I don't know that you should play poker (but if it is your passion, I don't see why not), but clearly, you don't seem to be on the right path (for you) right now. Life is too short - live it.

[turnipmonster]

I think you should not spend your youth/early 20s doing something you hate.

you seem to have a good grasp of this already, but someone said this to me once and it was invaluable, so I'll say it to you. life is much easier if you always live below your means.

I know lots and lots and lots of people who live in nyc and make less than 50k year.

--turnipmonster

[MJL]

I won't advise on poker but I am VERY, VERY familiar with the career path you have started. Here are a couple thoughts.
1. Being an exceptional candidate is way off from being the elite who have the rewards you describe. You can have a great deal of success but most are in the 100k-400k range. This is very volatile. With the financial world changing so much in the last 10years it is not uncommon for you to be working one day and unemployed the next.
2. You will be a sales person ALL of the time!! Not just selling product or deals but you will be selling your image, capabilities, value and not least on the list is your lack of threat to others. You will always be on stage. To have the big career you see others having you will not have a job it will be a lifestyle. It will consume you and all of your world will revolve around it.
3. You stated you didn't want to be labeled a loser. Jump ship now. If you are worried about what others think and doubt your desire to proceed now you will certainly not get anywhere but burned out very quickly. You will be beat up by others and end up in the back of the house processing the deal maker’s work. This does not make you a failure or looser, just someone destined for another path. Your resume will reflect this.
Good luck

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you should not spend ANY TIME IN YOUR LIFE doing something you hate.

[/ QUOTE ]


fixed.

seriously...I know some people hate their jobs and are kind of 'stuck' there for whatever reason.
But I don't see why this has to be about 'being young' to not do something you hate (as others have kind of made it).

It almost feels like I am allowed to say, "OK..I'm 35. So I guess I can do something that I really despise now."


One's youth is too short to waste it on doing something you hate.
And one's whole life is too short to do same.

[turnipmonster]

point taken.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you should not spend ANY TIME IN YOUR LIFE doing something you hate.

[/ QUOTE ]


fixed.

seriously...I know some people hate their jobs and are kind of 'stuck' there for whatever reason.
But I don't see why this has to be about 'being young' to not do something you hate (as others have kind of made it).

It almost feels like I am allowed to say, "OK..I'm 35. So I guess I can do something that I really despise now."


One's youth is too short to waste it on doing something you hate.
And one's whole life is too short to do same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hate my job, but I'd much rather be playing poker full time.

However, I have a wife (with a crappy paying part time job, and much lower salary potential than me if she looked for a full timer) a step daughter, and my wife is going to stop working soon so we can work (or, um, play) on having some kids.

My job covers more than we spend by a little, we have health insurance, and our financial worries are low (although not non-existent, we managed to rack up quite a bit of personal debt before we got our finances straightened out.) Our nut is relatively high. I'd like to think I could make a decent living playing poker but I don't have the track record of enough hands at high enough limits to say that with enough confidence to quit my job.

So I step up to the plate and go to a job that I'd rather not be doing (although, again, its not in the hate category) because I have a family to support that I'm not willing to put through the stress of seeing if I could make a go at poker.

Shyte happens. The trade-off is worth it.

Apples and oranges, perhaps, because I'm not talking about something I despise, but I can definitely see the point of doing something you despise if it lets you take care of your responsibilities in the world.

--Zetack

[JohnnyHumongous]

Yes... the road to the mountaintop isn't always sunny and smooth. There is a difference between doing something you hate and doing something you hate that will get you somewhere special. Life wasn't meant to be a cakewalk. If I'm on a road to somewhere great, I don't mind putting in a lot of hard work and dealing with tremendous challenges along the way.

Then there's the old-school, "putting food on the table" ethos that Zetack is talking about. There is a great deal of honor and personal satisfaction associated with that. Once when I was much younger and more into navel-gazing I told my dad how I wanted to be an artist, or something along those lines. My dad looked at me and said, "Do you think I like my job son? Wouldn't you think I would rather be a sculptor? I would love to be a sculptor, sculpting all day. But you know what? I have to put food on the table, so you and your mother can eat."

Of course, my dad didn't even attend high school, much less a Northeast liberal arts college where one can actually contemplate a variety of farfetched life paths from a place of safety and security. My dad didn't have that luxury, and I definitely feel sympathetic to his views on hard work and family values.

Hey Man,
Your post sounds way too desperate. I don't think you should continue with IB. Forget the money. It's only money. If you have no responsiblities other than yourself I say work towards your own business.
I'll give you an example:
A friend of mine graduated from UCLA Med. His father was a doctor and wanted him to be a doctor. He went through the motions and found that he hated it.
He pissed off and dissapointed everyone by quiting.
His passion had always been airlines. He took a $7/hr job at an airport just to get into the industry. Within 4 yrs he was working at their headquaters in revenue management. He is now a VP at a smaller east-coast carrier(7 years after he started.)
He obviously struggled in the beginning, but I can't tell you how much happier he is right now. In fact, he was happy even when he was getting paid $7/hr and getting yelled at by passengers. He just loved being part of the industry.
Don't know if this will help. Hope it does. Good luck to you.

I respect Johnny's dad and people like him. My father also ended up doing something other than what he would have liked to provide for his family.
However, this is a guy who is still young and may just be responsible for himself. Now would be the time to try whatever path he chooses. Later, his priorties will change and he can consider those at that time.
Life will be happier for him and his family in the long run.

[MicroBob]

Yeah..I admit to not being the most responsible guy in the world in some regards.

In college and then post-college I worked in radio. I knew I wouldn't make much money..but I was good at it and it was fun.

Kind of the same with poker, except that I can make better money at it.


However, as you point out, you don't 'despise' your job.
If you did then you know full well that you don't HAVE to stay at that job.
You can be 'responsible' and do all the things to support your family that you should be doing...AND get a different job somewhere else.


Personally, I don't really LOVE playing poker that much.
I enjoy it...but if I were to win $2-million at the WSOP or something you sure wouldn't be seeing me playing too much online OR live. Maybe some occasional big tourney events in Aruba and Bahamas...but I wouldn't be knocking myself out with it.

Poker is something I moderately enjoy doing but it's not the end-all be-all.
It's a cross between income and enjoyment that I am comfortable with.

If I had my choice, I'd rather get paid a ton to broadcast minor-league baseball games on the radio again. But that just isn't going to pay a whole lot.

If I made a ton of money at poker though I might take a radio gig or two because then I could do what I enjoy withut having to worry about the fact that it pays almost nothing.

[lehighguy]

You sound like you've done this. Any backround?

It is a lifestyle, and I don't like it. I just want to go home at the end of the day. I just want to do a job and not be acting all the time.

I'm just not one of these people. My kind of people aren't in this field.

[ QUOTE ]
I know a lot of IB guys worth a few million by 35 that keep working till they are 60. They can have 100 million dollars and they still want more. How many porches can one guy own.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what this has to do with you. Just because they keep working doesn't mean you have to. Maybe they like work, a lot of people in industries like IB and accounting and whatnot actually like busting their humps 70 hours a week. However, if you don't there is nothing stopping you from working until you are 35, getting those few million, then leaving. Just because they stay doesn't mean it is your destiny too.

[SenecaJim]

I say go with the flow. Do what makes you happy as much as you can in your own power. However, don't rush it. Specially at your age. You have reduce things down to their elemental form about what will make you happy, not always an easy task.

Leave yourself room for movement, what makes you happy or you think does can change. A lot of things are new with your new job...not just the job. How people relate to you, your family, living situation, friendships, responsibility level way different than college.

Whatever you do, my advice is general. don't jump it right away. Don't start doom and glooming about this cant' be your life. It's not. it's your job. Tell yourself I will give it 6 months and re-evaluate. Use that time for deeper research into the change you are thinking about. And then, if that's what you wanna do, you prepared and believe it will make you happy, go for it.

I have been a risk taker all my life, i'm old and kinda scarred up here and there, but never complained about one scar. When you leap or don't just be sure to go in with a manup attitude, you are the only one that can make your decisions and be prepared to fully accept situations that places you in.,,,,,AND, good luck to you. I've had more than my share.

[Bulbarainey]

gamble, gamble, gamble. then buy a strip club... few investments will ever get you a higher return per month. the 9-5 sucks and it always will, but when youre working for yourself and even more hours its not nearly as bad.

[roxtar]

I'm a 29 year old blue collar slob and would give my right nut to have the opportunity that you've got now.
I'm not calling you a crybaby or anyhting like that, but just remember that your grass is greener than a lot of other people's.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you luck.

[DoubleJ Chef]

I was in a similar situation about a year ago... I was in the restaurant business making decent money, but I absolutely hated what i was doing. I decided that poker was one of the few things i truely enjoyed and spent most of my free time playing. I ended up getting out of management and went to poker dealers school. I have been dealing for a little over a year now, i make decent money, but I get to be involved in the game i love every day. And on my days off, my friends (mostly poker dealers or players) get together and play. I make a good amount of my disposeable income playing cards, and i know that if I have a bad run on the tables, i can always pick up a few extra shifts. Not to mention, i get to see thousands of hands a week while making money without having to risk any money. I wanted to be involved in poker professionally without having to risk playing for a living. I think dealing is the next best thing.

Just my $0.02

-Chef

Interesting post. I'm also 22 and you seem to be of similar character and in a similar position to me.

I'm up around £2000 (UK) playing poker since september and am currently working on my Masters in Chemistry in my final year at Manchester University.

I hate it! My collegues are morons and I dont want to be a research chemist, but I could very easily get a job with some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in england.

Playing poker professionally I believe to be too much of a risk, but like you i've thought about going into something I would much prefer and know a lot about: online gaming.

I believe with many jobs "you get what you pay for" in the sense that a tougher / more stressful job pays better. Perhaps, going into a job that is less well-payed but easier and more fun is the secret? You'll be able to make up the money playing poker in your spare time and maybe even the time to win qualifications into bigger tournaments.

However, with no artistic talents and no programming knowledge... theres little chance of me being useful or constructive in the computer gaming industry.

So what do i do after this year? Well, i'm supposed to be applying for jobs now. *shrug*

[JimGil]

I work at an investment bank on wall street. I'm not a banker but I work very closely with them. You are not the only one who hates this job. THEY ALL HATE IT! They just do it for the $$$ and 85% leave after 2 years. $65,000/year for 2 years isn't that great considering the hours - if you're planning on sticking it out for 5-6 years, it might be worth it, but you can make the same $$ playing cards, then play cards and be happy.

These places will drain you and you'll end up one giant hemmerroid.

[MarkL444]

keep your job and play poker. make a lot of money. invest it with your mad investment banker skillzzz. then do whatever. simple.