View Full Version : 5/10 6-max stats check please
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 02:19 PM
I have always been a mediocre 5/10 6-max player, hovering around 0.75BB/100 for the past 2 years. I have never really made a concerted effort to get better because I wans't really losing, but I think it's time for me to get motivated and start looking for areas to improve on. So, on that note I would appreciate some feed back on my stats.
I keep my PT database by month because I find that when it gets too big it slows down my computer. So what you see below is only for October. October happened to be a typical bad month for me which is the reason why I picked it for review.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to look.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/903101/main.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/903101/position.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/903101/detail.JPG
On a side note, is there a way to combine previous months' databases into one so that I can get a larger sample? So if I can quickly do that, I would combine databases for all my previous months, get the stats, and post the results for the entire year and just delete that database after I'm done.
jph0424
11-11-2005, 02:40 PM
WTSD too low for your VPIP, folded to river bet too high. Turn aggression a little high imo.
There's been a trend in all these "I'm been running bad here are my stats" threads. Either their WTSD is low because they're running bad or they're running bad because their WTSD is low.
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 02:47 PM
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WTSD too low for your VPIP, folded to river bet too high. Turn aggression a little high imo.
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What would be a good WTSD% for my VPIP of 22.7%?
Wynton
11-11-2005, 02:49 PM
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WTSD too low for your VPIP, folded to river bet too high. Turn aggression a little high imo.
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What do you think WTSD should be for a VPIP of 22? What would you say it should be for a VPIP of 27?
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 03:03 PM
It's been less than an hour since I posted this so there probably will be more feedbacks coming, but so far, it seems you guys are saying my WTSD is too low for my VPIP.
I wonder what kind of river calls I should be making. I mean, it seems I already made many questionable river calls, that if I were to call more rivers than I already did, I feel like my win rate would be lower... I don't know, I'm saying this without any specific exmaples and just thinking back to how I ran towards the last 3 weeks of October.
I do agree with you guys tho, that my WTSD does seem low compared to some of the other stats I've seen here. So, does this simply mean that I ran bad and there's really nothing to fix? I gotta think there's something wrong here, I mean, it just doesn't seem right to blame it all on bad luck.
kidcolin
11-11-2005, 03:03 PM
is -1.1BB/100 solid for the SB? It seems high to me.
jph0424
11-11-2005, 03:32 PM
In my opinion if your VPIP is 22 then you are pretty tight preflop by anyone's standards which means your starting hand is generally pretty strong (stronger than a VPIP 30). Thus you should go to showdown slightly more than a vpip 30. I think for a VPIP 22 a WTSD in the 35-39 range would be appropriate and with a higher VPIP it should decrease slightly (just a guess but 1% lower WTSD for ever 4 or 5% higher VPIP). What do you guys think?
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 03:34 PM
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is -1.1BB/100 solid for the SB? It seems high to me.
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That number is displayed in a unit of BB per hand, so -0.11 would translate to -11.0BB/100. You say too high... I guess you mean too high in magnitude on the negative side, thus too low, right?
kidcolin
11-11-2005, 03:54 PM
Yeah.. and I just messed up the notation.. I meant the .11/hand. I'm quasi-new to PT stats, so I don't know what some of these PT guys say is "standard." But my intuition says it should be less than .1, since if you just folded every SB you would only lose .066/hand assuming this is party with the 2/5 SB/BB structure. So it should be less than, since you should win some hands too. I don't have PT with me.. I think mine is around -.02 or -.01, but I'm also running good.
I think your turn aggression is too high which is leading to you not going to showdown as much as you should. I bet you are bet-folding the turn when you should be checking a lot. If your hand is shaky and you are HU it is okay to check behind on the turn and call a river bet rather than bet-fold. I think a lot of the time if you are going to bet-fold the turn with a very shaky but showdownable hand you are better off checking behind and calling a river bet unless your opponent is a calling station type of player. The shorthanded games aren't loose passive where you can bet bet bet and throw your marginal hand away when you encounter resistance. Plus if your hand is shaky and you check behind you might a) pick off a bluff or b) suck out. The pots are small when it is HU so giving a free card really isn't that big a deal anymore, especially when there is a good chance you are the one getting a free card instead of giving. I think I play more passive than most of the HUSH posters though, but that is what has worked for me.
Your blind defense numbers are great-- you don't have to play a million hands from the blinds to do well. Your VPIP is 23%, which is nice and low. Your positional VPIP is sort of messed up a little bit though-- I think you can probably play more hands in late position than you are currently playing. Your BB won on the button is only .11 and I think you might be playing a little too tight there (and in the CO). I wouldn't mess with this until I straightened out my turn betting a bit, though.
But it's only 40k hands-- you could easily just be running bad. But next time you are unsure about a turn bet heads up, try checking behind and seeing how that works out for you.
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 04:19 PM
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I think your turn aggression is too high which is leading to you not going to showdown as much as you should. I bet you are bet-folding the turn when you should be checking a lot. If your hand is shaky and you are HU it is okay to check behind on the turn and call a river bet rather than bet-fold....
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Wow, thx that really hit home. What if I am out of position and the turn is a scare card? What do you do, being a relatively passive player as you described yourself? Would you check call the turn and check call the river if the river doesn't get scarier than the turn? I know this is a general question and your action depends on the opponent, and the board, but would you tell me how you generally handle the same turn situation if you are not in position?
That situation is a guessing game. Too much depends on the player and the way the game has been going and what not to say.
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 04:34 PM
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...But my intuition says it should be less than .1, since if you just folded every SB you would only lose .066/hand assuming this is party with the 2/5 SB/BB structure. So it should be less than, since you should win some hands too....
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How are you getting at 0.066 per hand? I assume that's -0.066BB per hand IF you folded every sb... that's what you are saying?
If you folded every sb in party's 5/10 which is where I play then you lose $2 for every hand in sb. So that's -$2 per hand which is -0.2BB per hand...
So I don't understand how you are getting to -0.066BB per hand by folding all sb hands... Did I do something wrong in my analysis?
lastcoyote
11-11-2005, 04:48 PM
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I think your turn aggression is too high which is leading to you not going to showdown as much as you should. I bet you are bet-folding the turn when you should be checking a lot. If your hand is shaky and you are HU it is okay to check behind on the turn and call a river bet rather than bet-fold. I think a lot of the time if you are going to bet-fold the turn with a very shaky but showdownable hand you are better off checking behind and calling a river bet unless your opponent is a calling station type of player. The shorthanded games aren't loose passive where you can bet bet bet and throw your marginal hand away when you encounter resistance. Plus if your hand is shaky and you check behind you might a) pick off a bluff or b) suck out. The pots are small when it is HU so giving a free card really isn't that big a deal anymore, especially when there is a good chance you are the one getting a free card instead of giving. I think I play more passive than most of the HUSH posters though, but that is what has worked for me.
Your blind defense numbers are great-- you don't have to play a million hands from the blinds to do well. Your VPIP is 23%, which is nice and low. Your positional VPIP is sort of messed up a little bit though-- I think you can probably play more hands in late position than you are currently playing. Your BB won on the button is only .11 and I think you might be playing a little too tight there (and in the CO). I wouldn't mess with this until I straightened out my turn betting a bit, though.
But it's only 40k hands-- you could easily just be running bad. But next time you are unsure about a turn bet heads up, try checking behind and seeing how that works out for you.
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You guys say what you want about these stats posts but I like 'em simply because Rory seems to have a soft spot for them and he always takes the time to give a nice analysis that anyone can learn from.
FWIW - I am never not surpised the wonders that checking the turn HU can do. You catch so many total river bluffs that you win with A-high or 3rd pair.
Monty Cantsin
11-11-2005, 05:47 PM
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You guys say what you want about these stats posts but I like 'em simply because Rory seems to have a soft spot for them and he always takes the time to give a nice analysis that anyone can learn from.
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Excellent point. I hate stats posts but I have come to realize that some people get a lot of use from them, and Rory's post is a great example of how good analysis can come out of them.
I still get frustrated by the attitude that you can tune up your engine by increasing your MPH by a few points, but now I just hold my tongue.
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FWIW - I am never not surpised the wonders that checking the turn HU can do. You catch so many total river bluffs that you win with A-high or 3rd pair.
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Also a good point. Checking is an essential component of an aggressive game. You can't make a martini without vermouth.
/mc
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 06:47 PM
Thanks everyone, especially rory for his analysis.
More inputs will be appreciated.
Silverback
11-11-2005, 07:39 PM
Definitely steal more.
Your blind stats are very poor overal. Could be you are to tight in the blinds. Although if confident in the blinds that could be down to sample size.
kidcolin
11-11-2005, 08:31 PM
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...But my intuition says it should be less than .1, since if you just folded every SB you would only lose .066/hand assuming this is party with the 2/5 SB/BB structure. So it should be less than, since you should win some hands too....
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How are you getting at 0.066 per hand? I assume that's -0.066BB per hand IF you folded every sb... that's what you are saying?
If you folded every sb in party's 5/10 which is where I play then you lose $2 for every hand in sb. So that's -$2 per hand which is -0.2BB per hand...
So I don't understand how you are getting to -0.066BB per hand by folding all sb hands... Did I do something wrong in my analysis?
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Crap. You're right, I'm wrong. For some reason I was thinking BB/TOTAL hands, not just small blind hands (and even then I screwed it up anyway.. *sigh*). Disregard what I said. I still think I'm below 0.1, though.
Any of the PT gurus know what a "good" BB/hand for SB is?
imported_leader
11-11-2005, 08:40 PM
You're checking way too much after a PFR. You probably need to call more post flop as well.
BIGRED
11-11-2005, 10:44 PM
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You're checking way too much after a PFR. You probably need to call more post flop as well.
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Yes, that's another area that I feel like I can do better, but what if I'm just not hitting anything?
imported_leader
11-12-2005, 01:13 AM
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You're checking way too much after a PFR. You probably need to call more post flop as well.
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Yes, that's another area that I feel like I can do better, but what if I'm just not hitting anything?
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If it's checked to you and you're last to act 3 way or HU you really should be betting almost always. If the flop is A or K high you should bet it from any position 3-way. You're really checking a lot in this spot. I'm checking around 8% of the time. Maybe it should be 9 or 10%, but 22% is just absurd. You must be checking PP's when overs come too. That's really not a good idea most of the time.
BIGRED
11-12-2005, 01:15 AM
Ok, I will keep this in mind when I play next time and see if I can catch myself doing that. Thanks.
w_alloy
11-12-2005, 06:03 AM
Sorry, I didnt really read the thread, Im sure this has been said better than I'm saying it but another opnion always helps.
When I saw your vpip, pfr, and wtsd I "knew" your agression would be way to high. I was guessing around 3.5. Wrong!
With the combo of your vpip, wtsd, af, and w$sd, there can be only one conclusion: you are weak tight. You play tight pre flop and then are exploitably tight post flop. I bet you are a losing player to a lot of lags.
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