p;ay this differently?

[djr]

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.50 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (2.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif___Call
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Call
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Call
Seat 4: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___Call
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___Bring-in
Seat 6: xx xx K/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Call
Seat 7: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Fold
Seat 8: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif___Call

4th Street - (5.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Call
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___Bet___Call
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Bet
Seat 4: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Call
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Fold
Seat 6: xx xx K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Fold
Seat 8: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Fold

5th Street - (6.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Call
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Check___Call
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Bet
Seat 4: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Call

6th Street - (10.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Call
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___Check___Call
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___Bet
Seat 4: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif___Call

River - (14.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif xx___Check
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif xx___Check
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___Check
Seat 4: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif xx___Check

Total pot: (14.75 BB)

[benwood]

Who bet on 4th? Seat 2 or you?

[benwood]

Complete 3rd for value. Start building a pot &/or thin the field. Bet the river. Your board is not threatening, & no one has shown strength, so you should get calls from worse hands.

[preiserone]

I agreee with ben here. You've gotta build a pot on third when you've got the likely best hand and give the other guys a reason not to chase, which they will clearly have odds for since almost everyone stayed in for forth.

I like the raise on forth, no one has any kind of threatening board.

5th is good

6th is good

7th bet away, no one really looks like they even have a draw here.

[djr]

Seat 2 bet first, I raised.

I debated completing 3rd but opted not to since a completion here would not have gotten rid of anyone yet would have built a rather large pot giving people the right odds to chase on 4th and later. I thought keeping the pot smaller would give me more leverage on 4th.

[djr]

[ QUOTE ]
I agreee with ben here. You've gotta build a pot on third when you've got the likely best hand and give the other guys a reason not to chase, which they will clearly have odds for since almost everyone stayed in for forth.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, this sounds a little contradictory. If I complete who is going to fold on 3rd? No one is the answer. Yet now the pot will be really big for 4th and people will have even better odds to draw on me. I felt waiting for 4th and forcing more people to call two cold would better protect my hand. I can see the argument for value raising 3rd, but it just didn't seem right for some reason. I'm sure others will argue a value raise was warranted as well though.


[ QUOTE ]
7th bet away, no one really looks like they even have a draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was this reason I didn't bet. It seemed too wierd that three people would chase without having something I decided my queens up was not strong enough to bet. In hindsight I think I was just seeing monsters where there likely weren't any.

[preiserone]

[ QUOTE ]


I don't know, this sounds a little contradictory. If I complete who is going to fold on 3rd? No one is the answer. Yet now the pot will be really big for 4th and people will have even better odds to draw on me.


[/ QUOTE ]
My thinking is that betting on third puts it in peoples head that you have a big hand. They may call on 3rd but It will be tough for them to call again if they brick on 4th. Most likely they will be making a mistake if they fold on forth or even fifth since the pot will be huge they have odds to draw to pretty much anything. I just like to let them know that they shouldn't call you later in the hand because you've got a hand and your going to bet the whole way with it.

[blumpkin22]

Anyone says to do anything except for call on third is mistaken. Those guys Sklanksky, Malmouth, and Zee know what they are talking about.

Ok some people think complete thrid but your instincts are absolutely right. Completing thrid will build a massive pot that they will then be correct to chase. At 1/2 stud players rarely think about whether they are correct to chase or not, it is really impossible to knock people out at all. Just let them make mistakes by calling a double bet on 4th. I think you played it fine, but I would not bet seventh. I would check-call, your hand is not strong multiway really. My first post here, woo-hoo.

[preiserone]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone says to do anything except for call on third is mistaken. Those guys Sklanksky, Malmouth, and Zee know what they are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, I just did a once over of multiway vs. heads up section of 7csfap. I guess I sorta got a wrong idea in my head when I first started out here, one of my first threads was if you should raise in a situation like this (best pair against a lot of callers) and the overwhelming response was to put in a value bet here.

[Roland]

I’d usually just call on 3rd, but I think it’s pretty close actually. Yeah, 7CSFAP says to call here, but it uses $15/$30 and up as it’s model games. I’d think that at $15/$30 people need some kind of hand to limp; a bad hand maybe, but not as bad as what people limp with at $1/$2. In other words, a hand that has quite a bit more equity.

So - when you’re in this spot at $15/$30, you’re edge is probably quite small. At $1/$2 though, I’d expect it to be quite a bit bigger. And this means you should be completing more often in these spots than at higher limits.

Although - really only slightly more often, because of the structure. The half-bet bring-in makes completing for value less attractive then, say, the quarter-bet bring in at $20/$40.

One other thing to consider is how often / with what type of hands the player(s) to your right will bet on 4th. This is something I watch out for and take notes about a lot. Some people will bet almost every time with almost every hand on 4th (but rarely complete on 3rd). Some always bet when they catch a scary-looking card. Some almost never bet.
Obviously, if one of these bet-every-hand players is on your right you should be less inclined to complete on 3rd. Just wait for 4th and then thin the field.
On the other hand, if they are all total calling stations you should be more inclined to complete since there is no way you can thin the field on 4th (or later for that matter).

These are just some general thoughts though. There’s really no question that just calling is the better play in this hand.
But if, say, your kicker was completely live and the players on your right are total calling stations… I wouldn’t mind completing.