I folded AKo preflop

Am I crazy?

1/2 full ring.

UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets.

Folds to me in MP. I fold.

We haven't seen many 3-bets preflop at this table, and especially from UTG+1...however, these two guys were chatting rather frequently and someone had suggested that they might be colluding.

I lectured them both before folding and said "Alright guys, we better see a showdown. I want to see your cards..." Then folded with like 2 seconds left.

I don't like playing AKo to three bets. Am I crazy? Do you guys cap this or what?

[SL__72]

Cap.

If you want to see their cards you should pay for it /images/graemlins/cool.gif
I also don't understand how raising and threebetting without other players in the pot is a good tactic if you're colluding. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to see their cards you should pay for it /images/graemlins/cool.gif
I also don't understand how raising and threebetting without other players in the pot is a good tactic if you're colluding. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

B/C you might get hands like AK to fold?

[SL__72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to see their cards you should pay for it /images/graemlins/cool.gif
I also don't understand how raising and threebetting without other players in the pot is a good tactic if you're colluding. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

B/C you might get hands like AK to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make any sense. If they are colluding they other people in the hand to take money off of.

[Vote4Pedro]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only other option I see as being all that reasonable is calling 3 cold so you can see if the other guy caps. These guys would both have to have <5% PFR's for me to fold this.

yer in position, you gotta play. if the flop hits you, get it to showdown. any stats?

[milesdyson]

this thread will be unneccesarily long

So I folded, and some other dude capped behind me, the original raiser called the 2 extra bets and the other guy called for a 3-way capped pot.

Flop was Q3A.... This annoyed me, but I figured I'm still way behind to AQ, QQ, AA... a pantload of betting ensued, this made me think I made good laydown.

Turn was another Ace... again a pantload of betting ensued and I figured for sure someone had AQ now.

River....ACE... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU**

WTF!!!!!!

The pot ended up to be about 22BB's from what I remember and both the original raiser and the 3-bettor had a showdown.

Original UTG raiser had...... get ready..... 22. Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.

I almost broke something.

3-bet with QJ off. I don't even PLAY THIS HAND from EP. EVER.

Anyway, my session was about break-even for 350 hands so I wasn't that upset.

I guess I will just always cap AKoff preflop even disregarding the fact that someone in UTG+1 has the balls to 3-bet the UTG raiser?

That was my problem. If the raise was from MP, and the 3-bet a couple spots later, I cap this or at least call. But seeing a 3-bet from UTG+1 at a full ring table is pretty scary.

Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown. That's right, UTG called down with 22 against 2 opponents on this board....

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Original UTG raiser had...... get ready..... 22. Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.

...

3-bet with QJ off. I don't even PLAY THIS HAND from EP. EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had been paying attention, most likely you would have noticed the two "colluding" players were hyperLAGs and would have happily capped preflop. Most likely, they were just two guys having fun. What do you think the other people think when 2+2ers take over a microlimit table for a LAGfest?

Your loss for mucking AKo *IN POSITION* against LAGs.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
So I folded, and some other dude capped behind me, the original raiser called the 2 extra bets and the other guy called for a 3-way capped pot.

Flop was Q3A.... This annoyed me, but I figured I'm still way behind to AQ, QQ, AA... a pantload of betting ensued, this made me think I made good laydown.

Turn was another Ace... again a pantload of betting ensued and I figured for sure someone had AQ now.

River....ACE... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU**

WTF!!!!!!

The pot ended up to be about 22BB's from what I remember and both the original raiser and the 3-bettor had a showdown.

Original UTG raiser had...... get ready..... 22. Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.

I almost broke something.

3-bet with QJ off. I don't even PLAY THIS HAND from EP. EVER.

Anyway, my session was about break-even for 350 hands so I wasn't that upset.

I guess I will just always cap AKoff preflop even disregarding the fact that someone in UTG+1 has the balls to 3-bet the UTG raiser?

That was my problem. If the raise was from MP, and the 3-bet a couple spots later, I cap this or at least call. But seeing a 3-bet from UTG+1 at a full ring table is pretty scary.

Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown. That's right, UTG called down with 22 against 2 opponents on this board....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you cap with AK. Lesson learned.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I folded, and some other dude capped behind me, the original raiser called the 2 extra bets and the other guy called for a 3-way capped pot.

Flop was Q3A.... This annoyed me, but I figured I'm still way behind to AQ, QQ, AA... a pantload of betting ensued, this made me think I made good laydown.

Turn was another Ace... again a pantload of betting ensued and I figured for sure someone had AQ now.

River....ACE... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU**

WTF!!!!!!

The pot ended up to be about 22BB's from what I remember and both the original raiser and the 3-bettor had a showdown.

Original UTG raiser had...... get ready..... 22. Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.

I almost broke something.

3-bet with QJ off. I don't even PLAY THIS HAND from EP. EVER.

Anyway, my session was about break-even for 350 hands so I wasn't that upset.

I guess I will just always cap AKoff preflop even disregarding the fact that someone in UTG+1 has the balls to 3-bet the UTG raiser?

That was my problem. If the raise was from MP, and the 3-bet a couple spots later, I cap this or at least call. But seeing a 3-bet from UTG+1 at a full ring table is pretty scary.

Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown. That's right, UTG called down with 22 against 2 opponents on this board....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you cap with AK. Lesson learned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You cap AK because you get runner-runner quads and you're always up against weak hands.

There is no lesson here.

[milesdyson]

i believe the lesson learned is four-fold:

1. learn to play poker
2. don't be results-oriented
3. get reads
4. search for posts about folding AK preflop [edit:] before posting your own

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. You cap AK because you get runner-runner quads and you're always up against weak hands.

There is no lesson here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The lesson I was referring to was always capping in this situation with AK because you're going to win more than your fair share. This was in reference to his preflop decision which was what THIS ENTIRE POST WAS ABOUT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop was Q3A....
...
Turn was another Ace...
...
River....ACE...
...
Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.
...
Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[imported_bezdi]

Most money is made post flop. And AK is a very good preflop hand at least in limit poker, you should not be folding it even if it is 3-bet or capped to you preflop. At best, you may lose 2-3BB if you miss everything on flop and turn, but as the OP pointed out, he gave up a 20BB pot.

[car ramrod]

any reads?

[ QUOTE ]
i believe the lesson learned is four-fold:

1. learn to play poker
2. don't be results-oriented
3. get reads
4. search for posts about folding AK preflop [edit:] before posting your own

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Isn't that what we are ALL doing?
2) I'm not being board-results-oriented. I'm being results oriented of the players' hands.
3) In order to "have reads" you need to be results-oriented about previous plays. You cannot come to the conclusion "This guys raises with inferior hands" without previously seeing him raise an inferior hand.
4) Not even gonna respond to this.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop was Q3A....
...
Turn was another Ace...
...
River....ACE...
...
Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.
...
Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, forgot to go back and correct that. The guy with KK took it down. I had originally forgotten that 3 people saw the showdown.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I folded, and some other dude capped behind me, the original raiser called the 2 extra bets and the other guy called for a 3-way capped pot.

Flop was Q3A.... This annoyed me, but I figured I'm still way behind to AQ, QQ, AA... a pantload of betting ensued, this made me think I made good laydown.

Turn was another Ace... again a pantload of betting ensued and I figured for sure someone had AQ now.

River....ACE... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU**

WTF!!!!!!

The pot ended up to be about 22BB's from what I remember and both the original raiser and the 3-bettor had a showdown.

Original UTG raiser had...... get ready..... 22. Mr. 3-bet? Oh, he had QJ offsuit. He took the pot down with Aces full of queens.

I almost broke something.

3-bet with QJ off. I don't even PLAY THIS HAND from EP. EVER.

Anyway, my session was about break-even for 350 hands so I wasn't that upset.

I guess I will just always cap AKoff preflop even disregarding the fact that someone in UTG+1 has the balls to 3-bet the UTG raiser?

That was my problem. If the raise was from MP, and the 3-bet a couple spots later, I cap this or at least call. But seeing a 3-bet from UTG+1 at a full ring table is pretty scary.

Oh, I forgot the guy who capped PF had KK and also saw the showdown. That's right, UTG called down with 22 against 2 opponents on this board....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you cap with AK. Lesson learned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah see I don't agree with this. This will happen so rarely that it doesn't solely justify capping PF with AK. I'm not mad that 3 aces came off and I would have won, I'm mad that these guys bet me out with crap hands. I'm upset that they got me to fold a great hand. This IS part of my learning process.

From now on I will be less respectful of a 3-bet from UTG+1.

I guess what angers me is that my read was wrong. Now that I think about it, I just played the hand very poorly. A raise from UTG could be anything like KQ, AQ, AJ, ATs maybe...
and the 3-bet from UTG+1 could be AQ, AK (as well), AJ, maybe KQs, and possibly TT as well as JJ-AA.

AK is still ahead of several of these hands. I f**ked up and have moved on. I'll try not to let it happen again.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah see I don't agree with this. This will happen so rarely that it doesn't solely justify capping PF with AK. I'm not mad that 3 aces came off and I would have won, I'm mad that these guys bet me out with crap hands. I'm upset that they got me to fold a great hand. This IS part of my learning process.

From now on I will be less respectful of a 3-bet from UTG+1.

I guess what angers me is that my read was wrong. Now that I think about it, I just played the hand very poorly. A raise from UTG could be anything like KQ, AQ, AJ, ATs maybe...
and the 3-bet from UTG+1 could be AQ, AK (as well), AJ, maybe KQs, and possibly TT as well as JJ-AA.

AK is still ahead of several of these hands. I f**ked up and have moved on. I'll try not to let it happen again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been more clear. When I said lesson learned it had nothing to do with the outcome of the hand. Neither the outcome of the hand nor the board are relevant AT ALL. I meant that there are VERY few situations where you want to fold AK.

You should have capped and by folding, you sacrificed one of the times you would have "won more than your fair share". The lesson is don't fold AK in situations like this (which you already know now).

[matt hooley]

and where exactly was this 1/2 full game?

[mhlandry]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess what angers me is that my read was wrong. Now that I think about it, I just played the hand very poorly. A raise from UTG could be anything like KQ, AQ, AJ, ATs maybe...
and the 3-bet from UTG+1 could be AQ, AK (as well), AJ, maybe KQs, and possibly TT as well as JJ-AA.

AK is still ahead of several of these hands. I f**ked up and have moved on. I'll try not to let it happen again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you thought about equity? You'll be at least three handed on the flop. Which is awesome considering you may have over cards to pocket pairs (so you're getting 2-1 on a 40-60 deal?) or have another A dominated. When you hit you can extract as they will be drawing very thin, and if you don't hit you can be pretty assured that you are behind and you can get out for cheap. You're only problems come if one of these guys has AA and you spike a pair or KK and you spike a K. What else are you worried about?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread will be unneccesarily long

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
and where exactly was this 1/2 full game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party. Where else..

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread will be unneccesarily long

[/ QUOTE ]

The prophecy has come to pass.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I crazy?



I lectured them both before folding and said "Alright guys, we better see a showdown. I want to see your cards..." Then folded with like 2 seconds left.

I don't like playing AKo to three bets. Am I crazy? Do you guys cap this or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are either crazy or stupid for saying that part.

"GUYS YOU ARE MAKING ME A WEAK TIGHT NINNY PLZ SHOW ME YOUR HANDS"

Because your brain was telling you "But AK is a drawing hand, it only hits the flop 1/3 of the time, most of the time I'll lose all this money and I don't like losing money even if I'll win more from it in the long run. I'll fold here, they'll show AK and QQ and I'll look like a genius on twoplustwo!"

"...22 and QJ, I feel dumb."

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread will be unneccesarily long

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to quote this to reiterate my previous 'miles is the king' statement.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I crazy?



I lectured them both before folding and said "Alright guys, we better see a showdown. I want to see your cards..." Then folded with like 2 seconds left.

I don't like playing AKo to three bets. Am I crazy? Do you guys cap this or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are either crazy or stupid for saying that part.

"GUYS YOU ARE MAKING ME A WEAK TIGHT NINNY PLZ SHOW ME YOUR HANDS"

Because your brain was telling you "But AK is a drawing hand, it only hits the flop 1/3 of the time, most of the time I'll lose all this money and I don't like losing money even if I'll win more from it in the long run. I'll fold here, they'll show AK and QQ and I'll look like a genius on twoplustwo!"

"...22 and QJ, I feel dumb."

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, cool it. It's not your F***in money... jeez.

Go back to your 100/200 table, king.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

No, which is why I am being nice and trying to pinpoint your exact thought process when you missed out on a heap of money in this hand. As everyone else has. I've had the exact same feeling, but damnit, I still hit CAP everytime in this situations.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread will be unneccesarily long

[/ QUOTE ]

Define long pls