2-7 noob hand #1

[Aicirt]

I used to play mainly stud 8, wanting to give some other games a go. I played my first session of 2-7 tonight. I read the SS2 section on this game and have read some comments on some posts of other players, however I really could use some pointers. Ill post a few of my hands from tonights session.

Is there any way to get UB hand histories emailed to me? I was trying to copy and paste out of the hand history window while playing and that was really annoying.

So how did I do?



Euri10's TD converter (http://membres.lycos.fr/euri10/td%20converter.html)

Hand number: 9173777-1452
Level: $.25/$.50
Players:
UTG($3) seat 0
MP($23) seat 1
CO($22) seat 2
Hero($24) seat 3
SB($4) seat 4
BB($18) seat 5

Button at seat 3

SB posts. BB posts.

Hand: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Round 1(0.75BB)

UTG calls. MP calls. CO calls. Hero calls. SB calls. BB checks. SB takes 3. BB takes 3. UTG takes 2. MP takes 2. CO takes 2. Hero takes 2.

Hand: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Round 2(3.25BB)

SB checks. BB checks. UTG
checks. MP checks. CO checks. Hero
bets. SB folds. BB calls. undefined. MP calls. CO calls. BB takes 2. MP takes 1. CO takes 1. Hero takes 1.

Hand: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Round 3(5.25BB)

BB bets. MP raises. CO
folds. Hero calls. BB calls. BB stands pat. MP stands pat. Hero
takes 1.

Hand: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif

Round 4(10.25BB)

BB bets. MP calls. Hero raises. BB re-raises. MP calls. Hero re-raises. BB calls. MP
calls.

Showdown:
Hero shows. <font color="white">BB mucks 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif
MP mucks 8/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif</font>

[timprov]

Raise the first round. Second round is good.

Third is tough. You've got a great draw, but might be in for four bets here. Given BB's river action you probably would have been if he bet his hand. The pot's not huge, so you may have to find a fold here. I won't criticize a call too much though.

Fourth is obviously fine.

Showdown is screwed up. You should probably send Euri the hand history.

[bugstud]

raise predraw. rest looks good

[Notorious G.O.B.]

Probably fold 3rd, I would say. I'd raise preflop, I think.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Fold in the third round. You are getting 8:2, with the possibility of it being re-raised - crappy pot odds (unless BB is a weak player, then you should call getting 4:1 and cross your fingers). Raise pre-1'st draw.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[fnord_too]

fold third, only a 3 or a 6 helps you, and you are not getting the odds to draw there.

[Aicirt]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold in the third round. You are getting 8:2, with the possibility of it being re-raised - crappy pot odds (unless BB is a weak player, then you should call getting 4:1 and cross your fingers). Raise pre-1'st draw.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you calculate the odds you need to draw to make your hand? Can you assume a certain percentage of discards are going to be bricks and a certain percentage may have been paired cards for my opponents that would improve my hand?

But in general, is 4:1 about what I need to be getting to draw to approx 8 outs on the third round?

[fnord_too]

To calculate, figure the number of cards that should win for you (by rank), the size of the stub, and make an educated guess as to how many of your outs are left in the deck. 4:1 is generally not enough if you have 2 ranks that hit you here, and that is not considering the possibility that it gets jammed behind you. If you figure your implied odds at 6:1... I don't recall all the action, but you are worse than 6:1 to hit here almost always, and if there is heavy action your 6's may not even be outs.

The turn is a critical street in TD. It is a great FTOP street and manipulating pot size allows for a lot of exploitation on the turn. If people like to fold, you can jam marginal hands more on the flop, and if they like to call, keep the pot on the smaller side with your marginal hands so they get the wrong price to take the third draw. There is just a ton of neat stuff you can do in TD built arround pot size control.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]

How do you calculate the odds you need to draw to make your hand? Can you assume a certain percentage of discards are going to be bricks and a certain percentage may have been paired cards for my opponents that would improve my hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

There's more than one way to do it. You should probably not, however, be trying to figure out the probability that discards could have helped or hurt you--- others' discards are morally equivalent to cards in the deck. From your perspective, they're all unknowns.

The simplest way, and least accurate, is to just work with the cards you've seen. In this hand you've seen 8 cards, so there are 47 remaining. So 8 outs is 39:8 odds, or 4.9:1.

To improve the estimate you need to work out what the other players are likely to have. You can be pretty certain that they have 87s or better. This means the remaining "unknowns" is only 37 cards, but we don't know how many of our outs are available. It could be pretty few (if they discarded pairs and both hold 3s and 6s, or hold a better 7) or completely live (also unlikely.) My current rule of thumb is to say that 3 of your outs are dead vs. two pat opponents. (0.75 outs/card/hand) So 32:5 odds = 6.4:1.

Drawing to a wheel, you have some implied odds to make up the slack. So 5:1 pot odds is probably close.

[MarkGritter]

Although, as usual in poker, when you are not closing the action you must consider a raise behind you. I think TT pointed this out. Paying two big bets is marginal at best, paying three in this pot is bad.

Suppose player A estimates himself as even money to win the hand HU after player B's raise. It makes sense for him to call down.

Now suppose you call the raise. If player A recognizes that you are likely still drawing, and your equity is probably less than 25%, it becomes worthwhile for him to raise with his 37+% estimated equity.

[bugstud]

I'm a donkey. I probably would think 875 is good sometimes.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a donkey. I probably would think 875 is good sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

It often is. The times when it isn't can get expensive, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif TT is a little tighter than I am, I am somewhat bad at continuing when getting jammed in. (Usually I manage to suck out enough in Stud/8 to get away with it.)

An interesting excercise to work through might be to figure out the various cases here. My guess is the probability of them both having 9s or weak 8s is small. Against a single opponent or for a single bet you can certainly keep drawing here. Even if they both have weak 8s that is likely only another two outs at most.

[euri10]

to avoid copy paste UB histories download UltimateHistory.exe, this would be a good addition to have the link on the FAQ post
on a side note I saw several of the hands you posted were badly displayed by the converter, don't hesitate to send me hands with the problem you face /images/graemlins/wink.gif