$11-No idea where I am postflop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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kevkev60614

11-10-2005, 11:54 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP2 (t1500)
CO (t1490)
Button (t1490)
SB (t3400)
BB (t1440)
UTG (t1480)
Hero (t1500)
MP1 (t1200)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to t60, MP1 calls t60, 3 folds, SB calls t50, 1 fold.

Flop: (t200) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t140, MP1 folds, SB calls t140.

Turn: (t480) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t400, SB calls t300.

River: (t1280) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t500, SB raises to t1000, Hero calls t400 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3180

Would this hand have been okay if I'd checked the river? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

11-11-2005, 02:20 AM

With blinds that small and so many people at the table, I would have PFR at least 100 chips.

That flop isn't a great flop for you, as 3-4 can make a wheel. Anybody out there with A5 has a chance to make a straight or at least draw another ace. Less likely, someone can have 56. A bigger PFR will drive these hands out.

On the flop, you didn't quite bet enough to scare away draws. With SB having a stack more than twice as big as yours, you can't let him have free cards. I would have bet the pot there.

Scary card at the turn. very coordinated board at this point... someone could have made a straight or be drawing to one, or now has a flush draw, or both. When SB bets, the pot is nearly 600 and you only raised it 400. So now SB sees a pot of 1000 chips and only needs to call 300 for it. Those are pretty good pot odds. Your raise basically sweetened the pot for him. Almost half your stack is in the pot now. There is a possibility that he made his wheel here (A-5 straight) and is just trying to milk more money out of you.

River comes. Your bet of 500 doesn't do anything here... Either he doesn't have a hand and throws it away and you get nothing extra for the bet, or he has already made his hand and will take away the rest of your chips. He raises your bet and your forced to call with the rest of your chips.

Noticed how you ended up putting your whole stack in the pot with just a pair? By betting weakly you constantly dribbled money into the pot, giving him incentive to stay in. A stronger bet before the flop or on the flop would have kept you out of this predicament.

I think this a classic example of what happens when you try to slow play a monster, especially against a player with a stack twice your size.

What were the results? I bet he either made a straight (A-5 most likely) or flopped a set, in which case you were toast anyways.

11-11-2005, 02:45 AM

Yeah definantly have to raise to more than 60 preflop. With huge hands like that I sometimes too want to play them slower, but often time backfires. Just curious as to what he had, I'm guessing a set of 3s. I probably would have also checked the river.

Bigwig

11-11-2005, 02:52 AM

I'm okay with the way you played it, including the preflop raise. When someone checks to me on the river like that, and I feel that there's a high probability that I have the best hand, I bet. I might've bet less, for value. I'm guessing you lost the hand, which would surprise me, since the action looks familiar, and I would think I'm ahead a vast majority of the time.

kevkev60614

11-11-2005, 10:23 AM

Look-ahead bias: I think a lot of posters comment that a pfr should've been more or less based on how many players call that raise.

I don't see any reason why I should've raised to more than 3BB unless, of course, I look at the results.

[ QUOTE ]
I would think I'm ahead a vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really happy to have read this. I obviously continued to be the aggressor because I thought I was ahead. I still should've checked behind the river, I think. But earlier yesterday I had a hand that looked like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t1735)
SB (t1470)
BB (t1555)
Hero (t1500)
UTG+1 (t2000)
MP1 (t2730)
MP2 (t1040)
CO (t1470)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises to t60, 6 folds, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t130) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets t80, Hero raises to t220, BB calls t140.

Turn: (t570) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets t120, Hero raises to t500, BB calls t380.

River: (t1570) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1570

Most often when I have a good hand and bet, everyone folds. So it's starting to freak me out when I figure to have the best hand and people are betting into me and calling raises. I won one of these hands, and lost the other. But when I'm in the game I have no idea where I stand when villains take this line. Any thoughts?

splashpot

11-11-2005, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any reason why I should've raised to more than 3BB unless, of course, I look at the results.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your goal is to make worse hands put their money into the pot, you should definately raise more than 3BB this early. They'll call it. And if they'll call it, might as well charge them a high price.

The AK hand, I think is fine, other than the small PF raise. Since you're UTG, raising more than 3BB makes even more sense. My guess is that he had a smaller ace. Actually, now that I think about it, I'd push all in on the river for value.

kevkev60614

11-11-2005, 10:47 AM

I = officially floored.

This whole time I thought 3BB+1BB/limper was pretty standard. Are you raising more here because I'm UTG in round 1 of an $11? What should I bet here?

BTW, splashpot, I like your new tar better. Hot woman > Peter

And lets not forget my original point. Is it only the cards on the board that lead you to believe I'm behind in Hand #1 and ahead in Hand #2?

SonnyJay

11-11-2005, 10:58 AM

I'm going to disagree with Bazuul.

Your preflop raise is fine. I may have made it 70 or 80, but I don't think it really impacted the hand. You definitely want to make people pay to see a flop and you hope to thin the field, but you aren't all that disappointed to get a little action on KK.

Even though it's paired and connected, this really isn't a bad flop for you at all. It's rainbow and all low cards. If something like A3 called your raise, so be it. You can't slow down here. Likewise if 56 or A5 called and is going to chase the draws, then again, you can't really slow down. I like your bet (again, I personally make it a little bigger, but yours is fine).

The turn, while it completes 3 to the straight, again isn't all that dangerous. If he has A5 or 56 I think you just might have to pay him off. I think that Bazuul's idea that
[ QUOTE ]
Scary card at the turn. very coordinated board at this point

[/ QUOTE ]
is kind of a case of "monsters under the bed". You're scared of that 2334 board, but logically what would be there? I'm not saying there aren't donks at the $11s, but I don't think you can slow down because of the rare event you are beaten and miss all the chips you'd collect on all the times you're ahead. Seeing this board and thinking "oh god, I could be beat" considering the action up to this point is playing scared, in my opinion.

While I agree that against a decent player you won't get paid off on the river by anything worse than what you have, considering the action up to this point I wouldn't figure you're beat. I might have bet smaller but I think you can bet for value here. I don't think a river check is horrible because the hand has played kinda strange up to this point, but I do think you have value here.

[ QUOTE ]
Noticed how you ended up putting your whole stack in the pot with just a pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
At an $11 tournament with a preflop raise, you can not be scared of getting chips in on a board like this. Sure he may have been called by A3, or 56, or A5, or 72 for all we know. However, a 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif board is not one you should be scared to commit chips on. You'll be shown a better hand sometimes, but I believe you'll be shown a worse hand much more frequently (at least up to the river checkraise).

Summary: yes, he may be beat. That doesn't mean he played it wrong. Any board can have an overpair beat, and this is about the least threatening of all.

OP: I may have checked the river out of confusion, but I think a smaller value bet is correct.

-SonnyJay

Hendricks433

11-11-2005, 12:34 PM

Ok I havent read any posts but with the river checked to me I check behind alot here and the chips go to the other guy a vast majority of the time. They like to "slowplay" their set. They think if they bet your going to fold. You cant really fold to the check raise on the river but I check behind here. Getting checked to and called or just called with a pair on the flop like that sends warning signals to me. Im very very cautious in this situation.

microbet

11-11-2005, 12:47 PM

I think you played it fine. Even after the c-raise on the river, any PP 8 or over is a likely holding.

11-11-2005, 05:14 PM

After reading SonnyJay's and Microbet's posts, I'm guessing that I'm playing too conservatively and this might be why I end up on the bubble so often with a tiny stack. Guess I'll have to be more aggressive with overpairs.

Wolffink

11-11-2005, 05:41 PM

You're playing against the small blind who might have anything here, including a 3, which means you are practically drawing dead.

The preflop raise is fine. 3-5 xBB raises are standard.

The flop bet is standard. You should see where you are at. You're called which means the SB has something. You're in a morton's fork situation. Either you're easily winning or you're behind.

I like the turn raise, as it can win the pot immediately and sets up a free showdown on the river. If you are re-raised on the turn, it starts to get nasty.

A pair is the 2nd lowest hand in Holdem.

I dont want to criticise your river bet--though in hindsight, yes a free showdown couldn't be bad when you've been called down all the way thru here. You've got a strong hand and now the SB is showing weakness by checking. If you did bet, I'd bet a bit smaller, say 300. This enables you to get paid off. If you do get re-raised, you probably should be throwing the hand away.

If he had a set or straight, I would have expected him to re-raise your turn bet and then lead out on the river. That way he's sure to get paid off. Whereas now with the river check, you can just showdown your Kings and see if they are good.

I suspect a pro would check it down on the river, but I'd be tempted to value bet on the river and get paid off more times than I'll be re-raised. If I am re-raised I probably should be throwing it away. It's either a ballsy bluff after you've shown strength all the way thru or he can surely beat one pair.

11-11-2005, 07:09 PM

At the 11s, I'd say A5 and A3 are very possible holdings for the SB here, so I'd be inclined to check the river. If I did value bet, I'd make it a smaller amount. I doubt 88 or 99 is calling a 500 bet here, but maybe 250? JJ or QQ would call 500, but I figure JJ or QQ is raising your flop bet anyway. So I don't see too many hands you're ahead of calling that 500 river. I agree with Bazuul below that the turn raise should be higher, but I think your near 3/4 pot bet on the flop is fine - should price out the gut shot/overcard.