QTs SB

[baronzeus]

villain here is like 33/16. preflop call marginal. thoughts on the line?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks intending to fold to a bet.

[TheMetetron]

I don't like the turn/river.

I understand you don't want this to get checked through and don't want any free cards, but I also don't like putting two big bets in here.

We are quite possibly behind here against 3 other opponents. At least you have the river plan right given this turn action.

My plan here would probably be to check/call the turn and re-evaulate on the river. If I give a free card, so be it. I'd rather not put 2 bets in on the turn when I'm behind. If I am going to donk, I'd rather do it on the flop or even the river where a raise is less likely, but this is a drawy board that you are likely to get raised on if you try this on the flop, so I agree with your flop play.

The situation kind of sucks to be in and I may be in the minority by disagreeing with you, but I'm standing by my dislike for this line until proven otherwise.

[PokerBob]

i like a flop c/r.

[Drontier]

[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[baronzeus]

i agree with a lot of your points...but...

i think you are underestimating how often i am ahead. top pair mid kicker is a monster, even in a field of 4 people, especially with all the hands that might call the flop hoping to catch a piece or a draw.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with a lot of your points...but...

i think you are underestimating how often i am ahead. top pair mid kicker is a monster, even in a field of 4 people, especially with all the hands that might call the flop hoping to catch a piece or a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Upon further reflection, I think I am too.

That said, I would rather go with the flop c/r, if I think I'm ahead a decent percentage of the time. Crap, Pokerbob was right... what is the world coming to?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

say i checkraise the flop...do you think i have enough equity 3 (or 4) ways to make it +EV?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

say i checkraise the flop...do you think i have enough equity 3 (or 4) ways to make it +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i like blowing away one guy. If a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls I think you can bet and fold to a raise. Also, a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falling may illicit a fold from a better Q or other hands that have outs to beat you.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i agree with a lot of your points...but...

i think you are underestimating how often i am ahead. top pair mid kicker is a monster, even in a field of 4 people, especially with all the hands that might call the flop hoping to catch a piece or a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Upon further reflection, I think I am too.

That said, I would rather go with the flop c/r, if I think I'm ahead a decent percentage of the time. Crap, Pokerbob was right... what is the world coming to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just cuz I am often right doesn't mean i ever win. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

say i checkraise the flop...do you think i have enough equity 3 (or 4) ways to make it +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i like blowing away one guy. If a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls I think you can bet and fold to a raise. Also, a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falling may illicit a fold from a better Q or other hands that have outs to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, knew it was bound to happen.

I think a better queen never folds this HU (which is what you would need) if you c/r the flop and a spade falls on the turn.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

say i checkraise the flop...do you think i have enough equity 3 (or 4) ways to make it +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i like blowing away one guy. If a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls I think you can bet and fold to a raise. Also, a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falling may illicit a fold from a better Q or other hands that have outs to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, knew it was bound to happen.

I think a better queen never folds this HU (which is what you would need) if you c/r the flop and a spade falls on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, but this pot will be at least 3 way, even if we c/r the flop.

[TheMetetron]

So say MP has a better queen.

If we c/r the flop and lead a spade turn, BB has to act before MP. There is no way that MP folds for one bet with BB failing to raise the turn. Also, there is definitely no way he folds if BB folds. The only way he folds is if BB raises, in which case we are also folding.

I'm not disputing that c/ring the flop is the best play, because I think it is. I just don't think we are folding a better queen ever (I doubt BB has one unless he 2-paired, and he's definitely not folding that).

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
So say MP has a better queen.

If we c/r the flop and lead a spade turn, BB has to act before MP. There is no way that MP folds for one bet with BB failing to raise the turn. Also, there is definitely no way he folds if BB folds. The only way he folds is if BB raises, in which case we are also folding.

I'm not disputing that c/ring the flop is the best play, because I think it is. I just don't think we are folding a better queen ever (I doubt BB has one unless he 2-paired, and he's definitely not folding that).

[/ QUOTE ]

well, hopefully BB will be a non-issue, as a flop c/r will face him with 2 cold. I did not say we WILL fold a better Q here, but IMO our chances of doing so increases, especially if a /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls and we lead. If the guy caught in the middle has a Q, he is gonna be in a baaaaaaad spot.

[TheMetetron]

You know, I can't read. I assumed BB had already put in one bet, not CO. Don't ask why. I am liking your plan better now that I see what you are saying. Still, what % of the time do you think MP is going to fold a queen? I think he is still likely to call our bet and fold to a CO raise (if at all) the majority of the time.

[TStoneMBD]

my standard line is to checkraise these strong hands on the flop every time so doing otherwise is contradictory to my entire playing philosophy.