Carpenter wins NL Cy Young [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

pokerdirty

11-10-2005, 04:04 PM

I think you could make a case for each

let's look at the same comparison we gave Santana & Colon in the other AL Cy thread.

Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21
Losses: Carpenter 5, Willis 10
CG: Tied w/ 7 each
Shutouts: Willis 5, Carpenter 4
IP: Carpenter 241.2, Willis 236.1
ERA: Willis 2.63, Carpenter 2.83
WHIP: Carpenter 1.06, Willis 1.13
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292
K: Carpenter 213, Willis 170
BB: Carpenter 51, Willis 55
K/BB: Carpenter 4.18, Willis 3.09
H: Carpenter 204, Willis 213
HR: Willis 11, Carpenter 18

A lot of the catagories are close, with Carpenter coming slightly ahead. It must help that the Cardinals made it to the playoffs, while the Marlins were playing golf in October.

Either that or it's because Willis is black.

Benholio

11-10-2005, 04:30 PM

To be fair...

Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21, Clemens 13
Losses: Carpenter 5, Willis 10, Clemens 8
CG: Tied w/ 7 each, Clemens 7
Shutouts: Willis 5, Carpenter 4, Clemens 0
IP: Carpenter 241.2, Willis 236.1, Clemens 211.1
ERA: Willis 2.63, Carpenter 2.83, Clemens 1.87
WHIP: Carpenter 1.06, Willis 1.13, Clemens 1.01
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292, Clemens .198
K: Carpenter 213, Willis 170, Clemens 185
BB: Carpenter 51, Willis 55, Clemens 62
K/BB: Carpenter 4.18, Willis 3.09, Clemens 2.98
H: Carpenter 204, Willis 213, Clemens 151
HR: Willis 11, Carpenter 18, Clemens 11

pokerdirty

11-10-2005, 04:43 PM

i don't know how many he had, but clemens did not have 7 complete games.

Benholio

11-10-2005, 05:20 PM

That should say 1. Too late to edit.

technologic

11-10-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could make a case for each

let's look at the same comparison we gave Santana & Colon in the other AL Cy thread.

Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21
Losses: Carpenter 5, Willis 10
CG: Tied w/ 7 each
Shutouts: Willis 5, Carpenter 4
IP: Carpenter 241.2, Willis 236.1
ERA: Willis 2.63, Carpenter 2.83
WHIP: Carpenter 1.06, Willis 1.13
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292
K: Carpenter 213, Willis 170
BB: Carpenter 51, Willis 55
K/BB: Carpenter 4.18, Willis 3.09
H: Carpenter 204, Willis 213
HR: Willis 11, Carpenter 18

A lot of the catagories are close, with Carpenter coming slightly ahead. It must help that the Cardinals made it to the playoffs, while the Marlins were playing golf in October.

Either that or it's because Willis is black.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you compare with 22 straight QUALITY starts? that's kind of ridiculous. take away the september carpenter was slacking because st. louis was going to coast into the playoffs, and you get no comparison. chris carpenter HANDS DOWN.

pokerdirty

11-10-2005, 06:26 PM

both of them had awful septembers though. you can't forget about one month from the guy because his team was already in the playoffs.

technologic

11-10-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
both of them had awful septembers though. you can't forget about one month from the guy because his team was already in the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

true but i think cc has been more consistent overall, while dontrelle had a very good start then varied from start to start. consistency's pretty impt for a pitcher imo.

Huskiez

11-10-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
take away the september carpenter was slacking because st. louis was going to coast into the playoffs, and you get no comparison. chris carpenter HANDS DOWN.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take away Dontrelle's weak last June start and most of his July starts where he was slacking, he wins HANDS DOWN.

If you take away Clemens's 3 starts since late August in which he gives up 5+ runs and gets a loss in each because he was slacking, he wins HANDS DOWN.

I like to compare stats after taking away poor performances. Makes it more fun.

pokerdirty

11-10-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
both of them had awful septembers though. you can't forget about one month from the guy because his team was already in the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

true but i think cc has been more consistent overall, while dontrelle had a very good start then varied from start to start. consistency's pretty impt for a pitcher imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

winning 2/3s of your decisions seems pretty consistant to me.

don't get me wrong, i think carpenter probably deserved it, i'm just trying to get some opinions flowing through here.

technologic

11-10-2005, 06:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
take away the september carpenter was slacking because st. louis was going to coast into the playoffs, and you get no comparison. chris carpenter HANDS DOWN.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take away Dontrelle's weak last June start and most of his July starts where he was slacking, he wins HANDS DOWN.

If you take away Clemens's 3 starts since late August in which he gives up 5+ runs and gets a loss in each because he was slacking, he wins HANDS DOWN.

I like to compare stats after taking away poor performances. Makes it more fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no reason for them to slack during those periods, however. and clemens, does he even go past 7 innings?

Huskiez

11-10-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
true but i think cc has been more consistent overall, while dontrelle had a very good start then varied from start to start. consistency's pretty impt for a pitcher imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dontrelle had a rough stretch from June 28 to July 22. He was very consistent except for that period.

TheRover

11-10-2005, 06:38 PM

Clemens should have won, but whatever.

tdarko

11-10-2005, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but clemens did not have 7 complete games.

[/ QUOTE ]
no pitcher will ever have 7 complete games in that ballpark.

i remember clarkmeister chiming in a thread while the playoffs were going on saying the cardinals were going to the WS b/c better pitching wins out and i disagreed b/c i thought the astros had the pitching and he argued about numbers, well when you pitch in a cracker jack box numbers can be skewed. the playoffs proved the astros had the better pitching, say what you want about lidge but they did.

if clemens throws in the two graveyards that willis and carpenter threw in (plus had st. louis' offense! to give him some run support) then this award isn't even debatable.

SammyKid11

11-10-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair...

Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21, Clemens 13
Losses: Carpenter 5, Willis 10, Clemens 8
CG: Tied w/ 7 each, Clemens 7
Shutouts: Willis 5, Carpenter 4, Clemens 0
IP: Carpenter 241.2, Willis 236.1, Clemens 211.1
ERA: Willis 2.63, Carpenter 2.83, Clemens 1.87
WHIP: Carpenter 1.06, Willis 1.13, Clemens 1.01
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292, Clemens .198
K: Carpenter 213, Willis 170, Clemens 185
BB: Carpenter 51, Willis 55, Clemens 62
K/BB: Carpenter 4.18, Willis 3.09, Clemens 2.98
H: Carpenter 204, Willis 213, Clemens 151
HR: Willis 11, Carpenter 18, Clemens 11

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so Clemens led the league in ERA (the most important category as it relates to an individual pitcher's performance), led the league in WHIP, led the league BAA, gave up the fewest hits and the fewest HR's, and was second in strikeouts...and the guy comes in THIRD...because...

-His run support was awful
-He pitched in a hitter's ballpark
-He had a great bullpen who warranted work

Yeah, that's a fair award. No way you can tell me Willis or Carpenter would have done what Rocket did if THEY'D been the ones with the Astros lineup, bullpen, and ballpark. Roger was the best pitcher in baseball for the entirety of the season...and comes in third in the NL voting. What a total crock.

Voltron87

11-10-2005, 07:33 PM

clemens led the league in ERA, WHIP, and BAA while pitching in minute maid. he led ERA by a country mile. his lack of wins is due to him pitching for the astros. someone explain why he shouldnt be the winner.

tdarko

11-10-2005, 07:37 PM

yeah the results of this award and the contemplation between willis and carpenter has made me realize how little everyone really knows about the game.

half-way through the season sportswriters are comparing clemens' season to that of gibsons '68 season and now he finishes 3rd in the cy young voting. hahahaha. i love it. gotta love throwing in grave yards for power hitting teams.

pokerdirty

11-10-2005, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
clemens led the league in ERA, WHIP, and BAA while pitching in minute maid. he led ERA by a country mile. his lack of wins is due to him pitching for the astros. someone explain why he shouldnt be the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

because he dicked the yankees 2 years ago. poo on him.

tdarko

11-10-2005, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21, Clemens 13

[/ QUOTE ]
in 2003 colby lewis won 10 games and had a winning record for the texas rangers...

Benholio

11-10-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wins: Willis 22, Carpenter 21, Clemens 13

[/ QUOTE ]
in 2003 colby lewis won 10 games and had a winning record for the texas rangers...

[/ QUOTE ]

In 1987 Chris Bosio won 11 games and had a winning record for the Brewers.

TheRover

11-10-2005, 08:23 PM

At least they didn't really [censored] up the ROYs much.

Aceshigh7

11-10-2005, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At least they didn't really [censored] up the ROYs much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they did. Taveras deserved it over Howard. Taveras made the jump all the way from AA and has been starting since opening day. Howard didn't play nearly a full season. If he had he may have seen a Jeff Francouer-like drop-off.

Taveras deserved it.

Aceshigh7

11-10-2005, 08:47 PM

Clemens would have been a lock for the Cy if the Astros had even an average offense. The Stros' offense is plain offensive. The Astros got shut out like 8 or 9 times when Clemens was pitching.

TheRover

11-10-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At least they didn't really [censored] up the ROYs much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they did. Taveras deserved it over Howard. Taveras made the jump all the way from AA and has been starting since opening day. Howard didn't play nearly a full season. If he had he may have seen a Jeff Francouer-like drop-off.

Taveras deserved it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if he jumped all the way from high school to the majors. Howard's 300 ABs are more valuable than Taveras' 590 sub-par ABs. This isn't really debatable. Your arguement that with more ABs Howard drops off is irrelevant because it didn't actually happen.

battschr

11-10-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At least they didn't really [censored] up the ROYs much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they did. Taveras deserved it over Howard. Taveras made the jump all the way from AA and has been starting since opening day. Howard didn't play nearly a full season. If he had he may have seen a Jeff Francouer-like drop-off.

Taveras deserved it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if he jumped all the way from high school to the majors. Howard's 300 ABs are more valuable than Taveras' 590 sub-par ABs. This isn't really debatable. Your arguement that with more ABs Howard drops off is irrelevant because it didn't actually happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

battschr

11-10-2005, 09:00 PM

I think Willis should have won, because if you take away all of the AB where the runner got on against him, he had a 0.00 ERA with a .000 OBA, and that's pretty good. Also, if you take away all of the ABs where he didn't hit a HR, he batted 1.000 with a HOMERUN EVERY TIME HE GOT UP!!! Let's just hope he doesn't get robbed of the mvp next week.

Voltron87

11-10-2005, 09:14 PM

Benholio

11-10-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Taveras

.291 AVG
.325 OBP
.666 OPS

Howard

.288 AVG
.356 OBP
.924 OPS

[/ QUOTE ]

And as a pre-empive reply, playing a tougher position and stealing bases isn't enough to make up for being such a poor hitting OF. In much less time, Howard and Francour both roughly as productive as Taveras was for the entire season.

Take winshares (http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php) for example..

Taveras - 148 games - 13 win shares.
Francouer - 67 games - 13 win shares.
Howard - 84 games - 11 win shares.

Win shares take into account offense, defense, everything.

andyfox

11-10-2005, 09:43 PM

FWIW: http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/i...;leagueLimit=NL (http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php?sort=pitch&sort2=WSAB&limit1=&limit2=&le agueLimit=NL)

andyfox

11-10-2005, 09:53 PM

Very close indeed. If Willis had an edge, it would seem to be because of his hitting: he hit .261 with a .626 OPS. Carpenter is a woeful hitter: 5 for 77, .065.

Clarkmeister

11-10-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Clemens should have won, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, he should have lost last year, so it seems to have evened out.

Voltron87

11-11-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clemens should have won, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, he should have lost last year, so it seems to have evened out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that sample of irrefutable evidence, it appears the argument is over and decided.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In 1987 Chris Bosio won 11 games and had a winning record for the Brewers.

[/ QUOTE ]
but did he have an era of nearly 7 1/2? proof that wins be dick.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]

In that case, he should have lost last year, so it seems to have evened out.

[/ QUOTE ]
when picking who is deserving of an award, last year is now irrelevent. he was deserving THIS year.

who cares about last year, we didn't just play last years season. i hate it when someone uses that comment more than anything, if someone wasn't deserving years ago then fine, bummer, move on, it's not then anymore. things don't even out b/c you pick the WRONG person the next year.

Clarkmeister

11-11-2005, 02:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In that case, he should have lost last year, so it seems to have evened out.

[/ QUOTE ]
when picking who is deserving of an award, last year is now irrelevent. he was deserving THIS year.

who cares about last year, we didn't just play last years season. i hate it when someone uses that comment more than anything, if someone wasn't deserving years ago then fine, bummer, move on, it's not then anymore. things don't even out b/c you pick the WRONG person the next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but it *is* relevant because the criteria the voters use is both clear and fairly consistent.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but it *is* relevant because the criteria the voters use is both clear and fairly consistent.

[/ QUOTE ]
so you are saying that him wrongly winning the cy young last year played into the voting? i disagree.

and i still think that it may be consistant b/c yes they do use the same criteria every year but correct? no. if the criteria were correct they would not weigh the decision so heavily on wins/cg's but more important criteria such as ERA and WHIP.

Clarkmeister

11-11-2005, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but it *is* relevant because the criteria the voters use is both clear and fairly consistent.

[/ QUOTE ]
so you are saying that him wrongly winning the cy young last year played into the voting? i disagree.

and i still think that it may be consistant b/c yes they do use the same criteria every year but correct? no. if the criteria were correct they would not weigh the decision so heavily on wins/cg's but more important criteria such as ERA and WHIP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but while the wins argument has merit, to minimize or discount IP and CG's is absurd.

Voltron87

11-11-2005, 02:24 AM

lets get this back on track. what happened last year (even if the [censored] voters think about it) doesnt affect who should be the winner this year.

clemens led the league in ERA, WHIP, and BAA while pitching in minute maid. he led ERA by a country mile. his lack of wins is due to him pitching for the astros. someone explain why he shouldnt be the winner.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 02:26 AM

i would never discount IP (and yes that goes with CG's) but nobody will ever throw 7 CG's at minute maid, too difficult...do you disagree? there is a lot of luck involved in CG's (of course a lot of dominance too), your team plays a big part of a CG and if you are only up by 1 run (bullpen comes in) and or having to constantly try to put people away by strikeout instead of relying on your defense b/c of your ballpark (your pitch count inflates) then the chances of you getting deep in the game diminish.

clemens runs away with this thing w/o question if he is throwing in st. louis or miami.

Home: 17 G ERA 2.33 115 IP
Away: 15 G ERA 1.32 95 IP

Clarkmeister

11-11-2005, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nobody will ever throw 7 CG's at minute maid, too difficult

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. It's irrelevant as it's not like Clemens got close all that often. He was a 6IP guy pretty much every start.

Clarkmeister

11-11-2005, 02:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why he shouldnt be the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a douche.

He's an Astro.

He lost to Carpenter in their head to head matchup.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tdarko

11-11-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He's a douche.

[/ QUOTE ]
i know you are a cardinal fan but why the distaste?

Benholio

11-11-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In 1987 Chris Bosio won 11 games and had a winning record for the Brewers.

[/ QUOTE ]
but did he have an era of nearly 7 1/2? proof that wins be dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just had no idea what you are getting at, so responded in kind. I agree that wins are a terrible stat for judging a pitcher's ability.

Voltron87

11-11-2005, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why he shouldnt be the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a douche.

He's an Astro.

He lost to Carpenter in their head to head matchup.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, I never even looked at his DCHBGASTRO+H2H@CARP index. thats a telling statistic and probably was in the forefront of voters minds. next up, did you compare their AFTFPOTB %'s? I think that's the only other important stat.

Clarkmeister

11-11-2005, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's a douche.

[/ QUOTE ]
i know you are a cardinal fan but why the distaste?

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon. This way predates his Astro days. Are there actually Clemens *fans* out there other than sportswriters?

Voltron87

11-11-2005, 02:51 AM

I'll also ad that I don't think the carpenter selection was a bad one. The colon choice was a truly bad pick. This is not like that.

Jack of Arcades

11-11-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll also ad that I don't think the carpenter selection was a bad one. The colon choice was a truly bad pick. This is not like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there were like 7 guys in the NL that if you gave it to them it wouldn't have been a complete travesty:

Carpenter
Willis
Clemens
Pettite
Oswalt
Pedro
Smoltz

technologic

11-11-2005, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll also ad that I don't think the carpenter selection was a bad one. The colon choice was a truly bad pick. This is not like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there were like 7 guys in the NL that if you gave it to them it wouldn't have been a complete travesty:

Carpenter
Willis
Clemens
Pettite
Oswalt
Pedro
Smoltz

[/ QUOTE ]

all you have to do is go on yahoo fantasy to see which pitchers have the highest fantasy value and you'll see that carpenter and mo should've won the cy young awards.

rwperu34

11-11-2005, 05:19 AM

2005 (ESPN) higher number favors batters

Houston 0.95
St. Louis 1.03
Miami 0.88

Three year average (Baseball Reference) over 100 favors batters, under 100 favors pitchers

Houston 98
St. Louis 101
Miami 95

I'm tired of hearing how Enron is some kind of batters haven. What happened was a statistical anomaly (known as variance in the poker world) in the first few seasons of the park. Over the last three years, it has played like a pitchers park.

11-11-2005, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's a douche.

[/ QUOTE ]
i know you are a cardinal fan but why the distaste?

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon. This way predates his Astro days. Are there actually Clemens *fans* out there other than sportswriters?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. There's a lot to admire about him. He's a competitor. I don't know if I can say I'd like him. He doesn't seem like a very likeable person, but I admire him.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
all you have to do is go on yahoo fantasy to see which pitchers have the highest fantasy value and you'll see that carpenter and mo should've won the cy young awards.

[/ QUOTE ]
i can't tell if you are being sarcastic or if this was a serious comment /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

2005 (ESPN) higher number favors batters

Houston 0.95
St. Louis 1.03
Miami 0.88

Three year average (Baseball Reference) over 100 favors batters, under 100 favors pitchers

Houston 98
St. Louis 101
Miami 95

I'm tired of hearing how Enron is some kind of batters haven. What happened was a statistical anomaly (known as variance in the poker world) in the first few seasons of the park. Over the last three years, it has played like a pitchers park.

[/ QUOTE ]
huh? what were your numbers even supposed to indicate?

ballparks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=HRFactor)

these numbers would be highers if houston had the up and down lineup of st. louis.

Paluka

11-11-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292, Clemens .198

[/ QUOTE ]

How do none of you baseball experts notice that these numbers are clearly wrong. You are showing OBP against for Carpenter and Willis and batting average against for Clemens. Clemens OBP against was .261, only slightly better than Carpenter. But his OPS against was about 80 points better. The decision is basically would you rather have a better pitcher, or 30 more innings from a slightly worse pitcher. Personally, I think 30 innings is a lot.
Anyone who read these numbers and actually thought that hitters had a batting average of over .290 against Willis this year should be banned from future baseball discussion.

Jack of Arcades

11-11-2005, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2005 (ESPN) higher number favors batters

Houston 0.95
St. Louis 1.03
Miami 0.88

Three year average (Baseball Reference) over 100 favors batters, under 100 favors pitchers

Houston 98
St. Louis 101
Miami 95

I'm tired of hearing how Enron is some kind of batters haven. What happened was a statistical anomaly (known as variance in the poker world) in the first few seasons of the park. Over the last three years, it has played like a pitchers park.

[/ QUOTE ]
huh? what were your numbers even supposed to indicate?

ballparks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=HRFactor)

these numbers would be highers if houston had the up and down lineup of st. louis.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the "runs" factor he posted, which means Minute Maid Park supresses run scoring by 5%. You linked to the Home Run Factor, which, while nice information, isn't used in any sort of adjustments to determine how well a pitcher does.

And no, the lineup does not effect home run factor.

tdarko

11-11-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And no, the lineup does not effect home run factor.

[/ QUOTE ]
explain to me how the lineup has nothing to do with the homeruns hit in a ballpark?

tdarko

11-11-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon. This way predates his Astro days. Are there actually Clemens *fans* out there other than sportswriters?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, i am a huge fan and he has never been on a team that i like. my respect for the way he goes about his business every single day isn't determined by the uniform he wears.

Paluka

11-11-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And no, the lineup does not effect home run factor.

[/ QUOTE ]
explain to me how the lineup has nothing to do with the homeruns hit in a ballpark?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the numbers are adjusted by how the same players do in other ballparks.

technologic

11-11-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
all you have to do is go on yahoo fantasy to see which pitchers have the highest fantasy value and you'll see that carpenter and mo should've won the cy young awards.

[/ QUOTE ]
i can't tell if you are being sarcastic or if this was a serious comment /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

joke.

although i do believe both have great reason to win the cy young.

Jack of Arcades

11-11-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And no, the lineup does not effect home run factor.

[/ QUOTE ]
explain to me how the lineup has nothing to do with the homeruns hit in a ballpark?

[/ QUOTE ]

Home run factor is essentially Astros HR at home divided by Astros HR on road.

Benholio

11-11-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BAA: Carpenter .273, Willis .292, Clemens .198

[/ QUOTE ]

How do none of you baseball experts notice that these numbers are clearly wrong. You are showing OBP against for Carpenter and Willis and batting average against for Clemens. Clemens OBP against was .261, only slightly better than Carpenter. But his OPS against was about 80 points better. The decision is basically would you rather have a better pitcher, or 30 more innings from a slightly worse pitcher. Personally, I think 30 innings is a lot.
Anyone who read these numbers and actually thought that hitters had a batting average of over .290 against Willis this year should be banned from future baseball discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't look at the Carpenter/Willis numbers, I just added Clemens numbers onto each category as listed, in an attempt to inject him into conversation, since pretty much none of the major channels even considered him.

[ QUOTE ]
The decision is basically would you rather have a better pitcher, or 30 more innings from a slightly worse pitcher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this all depends on the criteria for the Cy Young award. Is it the pitcher you'd most like to have on your team? The pitcher who was the best this year? If the award is for the best pitcher, you even say in your post that Carpenter was the slightly worse pitcher of the two this year.

There were several worthy pitchers in the NL this year. At least one of the best ones (Carpenter) broke the magic 20-win barrier and got the award because of it, rather than a Colon or somebody.